Alex Callinicos/SWP vs Laurie Penny/New Statesman Facebook handbags

[ViolentPanda]

I'm not sure it's envy, you know. Give your average Urbanite their very own column in the New Statesman and they would keep coal in it. I'm pretty sure it's straightforward contempt.

I'm not contemptuous of Ms. Penny/Dave/Laura. She says some things that need to be said (although she doesn't, IMHO, "speak truth to power" anywhere near as loudly as her more slavish admirers appear to think she does). As a journalist she manages to do the job, but her underlying political motivations fluctuate (within her writing) and she's possible even less self-aware than her N.S. colleague Mr. Hasan, if that's possible.

 

[butchersapron]

I've not read it, no. Not because I don't want to but because it's not available online or in any of the libraries I have access to and I can't afford to be buying every book anyone mentions to me so have to save what book money I do have for stuff that I really need for my studies. But I have read commentaries on it from the likes of Ellen Meiksins-Wood (cheers for pointing me her way frogwoman and butchersapron - great author!). It seems that just like you they claim, on the surface, not to abandon class politics but when their arguments are scrutinised they're painted into the same post-everything corner as you.

Here

Do have a quick skim of Hillary's intro, it's articul8's posts on here almost word for bloody word.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I saw it. Great film. Samurai classic.

The re-make as a western was well crap, though.

 

[Delroy Booth]

Laurie's initial comments when she joined up on here way back were sneering and dismissive. It's all very well to say "no other columnist would try this hard to speak to you savages" but I seem to remember her opening gambit on here being along the lines of "omg you basement dwelling losers, haven't you got something better to do than to talk about me, some of us work for a living y'know" or words to that effect.

By coming here to "engage" with that sort of initial mindset i think it's inevitably going lead to to an ugly argument, and that in turn is one of the reasons this thread is still going and hasn't sunk away off the front page of the forum for so long. A bit like the streisand effect, although in this case just a bit more like rubbernecking at a car crash, but I have a feeling had Laurie not turned up, or at least had a different attitude, this thread probably wouldn't even be on the front page of the forum routinely any longer. The Remzi poster is right on one thing - Laurie Penny's not actually important or interesting enough to warrant such forensic detail, and if it weren't for these occasional interventions this thread would be half the size. The size of the thread itself is perhaps the most intimidating thing.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Whenever I get a new book I only ever read the last 3 pages. Gives you the gist of whats happened without having to faff around finding out about all that pointless context. Also helps make me an extremely profilic reader - I'm up to almost one book a month now

I was going to do a gag in response to that about how I only ever read the third page of a newspaper (I don't actually do this, now the Green 'un is no longer being published I don't even buy a newspaper - fuck you internet for killing the best weekly local sports paper in the world, used to be able to buy it on my way home from the match and read the report on the match I'd just been watching, I'm sure there was some witchcraft involved in getting it out so fast) but in the context of recent discussion on this thread it probably wouldn't have been appropriate!

 

[andysays]

Violent threats, bitter name-calling, blaming her for everything in the world... just the most bitter hatred. Sorry but I can't imagibne how a columnist could cause such strange anger, unless it was ENVY.

More nonsense - made-up, hyperbolic, generalised, tarring-everyone-with-the-same-brush-because-if-you-were-in-the-least-specific-your-accusations-would-be-immediately-refuted nonsense.

You don't have even the ghost of a point

 

[equationgirl]

Violent threats, bitter name-calling, blaming her for everything in the world... just the most bitter hatred. Sorry but I can't imagibne how a columnist could cause such strange anger, unless it was ENVY.

Look you really need to read more than just the last few pages of this thread to understand it. It is a long thread but you'll quickly see that it's more of a commentary on political writings than anything else (at least that's how I see it). It's not just LP that's critiqued in some detail and by some very knowledgeable and politically aware people I hasten to add, a whole raft of writers claiming to write for the working classes are examined.

LP has a habit of popping onto the thread, not liking what she sees, calling all the posters something pretty vile - racists, misogynists, rape-apologists, whatever - and going away again. We know she uses this thread for article material, yet funnily enough we're never credited.

She is a fledgling writer in the big scheme of things but equally she is an adult and as tufty79 pointed out recently (and as others have pointed out throughout this thread), she should realise her writings have consequences and take responsibility.

For the avoidance of doubt, her account of rape has been viewed as one of her best articles. There are no rape apologists here, nor are there racists or misogynists.

 

[Remzi]

More nonsense - made-up, hyperbolic, generalised, tarring-everyone-with-the-same-brush-because-if-you-were-in-the-least-specific-your-accusations-would-be-immediately-refuted nonsense.

You don't have even the ghost of a point

Actually you are probably the bitterest one here. Oh well I don't think this thread is good for me or for you. Bye bye.

 

[SpineyNorman]

This is a very odd post.

Violent threats, bitter name-calling, blaming her for everything in the world...

This part suggests to me that you have an over-active imagination. What violent threats? What bitter name calling (beyond the treatment we give to everyone we dislike politically)? Where is she blamed for everything in the world? (In truth people have been at pains to emphasise that she's more an expression of the problem than the problem itself).

Care to name names or quote posts?

just the most bitter hatred. Sorry but I can't imagibne how a columnist could cause such strange anger, unless it was ENVY.

But at the same time this suggests to me that you don't have much of an imagination at all. Can you really not imagine any other reason for the reception she gets?

This 'hatred' is nothing compared to what I feel for people like Thatcher, Pinochet, Milton Friedman and so on - must I be envious of them too?

Your comments are just a re-heated form of the right wing 'politics of envy' slur. And they betray an elitist mindset - normals like us must be jealous of Laurie. It's inconceivable that we might be quite happy in our own skins and aspire to other, IMO more profound, things. All normals want to be celebs. All proles want to be middle class. And so on.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Not 'opinion.' I can read well enough to see what's happening here. Tall poppy gets chopped down.

If your perspective is not informed by past information, then it is contextless. If it has no context, then it is mere opinion. Your cry of "tall poppy syndrome" is, like your claims of envy and jealousy, mere opinion.

 

[grit]

If your perspective is not informed by past information, then it is contextless. If it has no context, then it is mere opinion. Your cry of "tall poppy syndrome" is, like your claims of envy and jealousy, mere opinion.

That is just the same as anyone else's posts on here then....

 

[SpineyNorman]

Not 'opinion.' I can read well enough to see what's happening here. Tall poppy gets chopped down.

All your arguments are based on the assumption that she's somehow superior to us. From this you go on to deduct that we must therefore be envious.

Fuck off. I'm perfectly happy being me, warts and all, and wouldn't swap places with her for the world.

 

[Remzi]

This part suggests to me that you have an over-active imagination. What violent threats?

Serously? Come on.

I could quite happily kick Harris in the teeth.

Thats just ONE, and it got 8 likes so far! Real madness.

 

[butchersapron]

That is just the same as anyone else's posts on here then....

Only if you ignore the whole first half of what vp wrote. He was attempting to establish what is required to go beyond mere opinion - and one of those things is awareness of past information and context. I mean he literally said that and you decided to ignore it.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Violent threats, bitter name-calling, blaming her for everything in the world... just the most bitter hatred. Sorry but I can't imagibne how a columnist could cause such strange anger, unless it was ENVY.

Could you possibly bring yourself to elucidate these "violent threats", this "bitter name-calling" and "blaming", these incidences of "bitter hatred"?
And all within the few pages you've read, too!

 

[SpineyNorman]

which post? The one on logic of confessional columns? I stand by it.

Yes. In the context of the accusations Laurie just made and the sensitive topic under discussion did you think this was an appropriate place to say it?

 

[grit]

Only if you ignore the whole first half of what vp wrote. He was attempting to establish what is required to go beyond mere opinion - and one of those things is awareness of past information and context. I mean he literally said that and you decided to ignore it.

His understanding or perception of the context is subjective.

You drunk already?

 

[Delroy Booth]

Thats just ONE, and it got 8 likes so far! Real madness.

could you link me to the post so I can make sure I liked it myself?

 

[Remzi]

All your arguments are based on the assumption that she's somehow superior to us.

Her post on this htead (the ones I read) are very far superior to yours. She was kind and gentle while receving only spite and hate in return.

 

[butchersapron]

His understanding or perception of the context is subjective.

You drunk already?

Marvelous. You misread something then lash out in a pretty pathetic way. Too too easy.

 

[ViolentPanda]

That is just the same as anyone else's posts on here then....

Do fuck off, you awful bore.

 

[Remzi]

It's inconceivable that we might be quite happy in our own skins

Sorry to say so but tghose who are happy in themselves do not speak as you do.

 

[tufty79]

Not 'opinion.' I can read well enough to see what's happening here. Tall poppy gets chopped down.

you *do* know she's about the same height as me? (not entirely serious - i don't expect anyone to know anything about me, let alone remember it )
some very fucking short poppies around

 

[ViolentPanda]

Only if you ignore the whole first half of what vp wrote. He was attempting to establish what is required to go beyond mere opinion - and one of those things is awareness of past information and context. I mean he literally said that and you decided to ignore it.

It's grit responding to a post by a poster he doesn't like. Of course he's going to wilfully-ignore anything material in the post.

 

[tufty79]

Sorry to say so but tghose who are happy in themselves do not speak as you do.

orly?

 

[ViolentPanda]

His understanding or perception of the context is subjective.

You drunk already?

Of course it's subjective. However, it's also informed by long-standing participation in this thread, and a reading (and occasional re-reading) of it, not by drawing inferences through reading a handful of the latest pages.

You stoned already?

 

[J Ed]

Thats just ONE, and it got 8 likes so far! Real madness.

It's referring to a different person. In any case it's not a threat, it's a desire, where are the violent threats towards LP?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Her post on this htead (the ones I read) are very far superior to yours. She was kind and gentle while receving only spite and hate in return.

You need to curb the hyperbole, and concentrate on the facts, or else you're in danger of looking ridiculous.

 

[Firky]

Thats just ONE, and it got 8 likes so far! Real madness.

No objection to his perverted and slimy sleaziness I note.

This one got half a dozen likes:

Every time I see that picture I want to punch him in the fucking face, really hard


No doubt this will reported back to him by the party faithful as misandrist hate speech.

We love Harris

Maybe people don't like him very much becuase he comes out with this creepy shit:

Almost everyone was comfortably past puberty, and so Halloween became about what everything becomes about in high school: sex. Don't get me wrong: As a 15-year-old, having your school full of sexy nurses or sexy cowgirls or sexy unicorns (okay, not as many unicorns as I would have liked) seemed like a daydream. But as the years went on, before I noticed, I had stopped dressing up. Maybe it was the public school system killing my imagination, or maybe I was just distracted wondering how girls planned to skirt the dress code and still come to school as dominatrices, but I couldn't come up with a good costume anymore.

 

[Remzi]

We love Harris

What crime has he comitted please? Must be some dreadful attack if he deserves such vicious words.