Alex Callinicos/SWP vs Laurie Penny/New Statesman Facebook handbags

[TruXta]

surely there are reasons behind it though, as supaduporstupor alluded to in their posts. Somebody might be really frightened of intimacy and convince themselves they don't want it at all.

There are reasons for everything. Why does asexuality seem so incredible to you?

 

[killer b]

check your horny privilege frogz.

 

[TruXta]

http://www.asexuality.org/home/overview.html

 

[frogwoman]

There are reasons for everything. Why does asexuality seem so incredible to you?

Because there have been periods of my life when I haven't fancied anyone. Not because I haven't wanted it but because there was other stuff going on in my life at the time, that made me feel unattractive, or that were more interesting at the time than sex and also the people I perhaps "should" have fancied were all dicks.

And also a lot of the time there are issues around women (and some men) don't enjoy sex because of their partners not respecting consent issues and stuff like that so they convince themselves they don't enjoy it anyway, "lie back and think of england" that sort of shit.

There's also social taboos around women being expected not to say they enjoy sex or what they would like in the bedroom.

I'm not saying there aren't asexual people around but I think a lot of the time people probably have other stuff going on.

 

[Superdupastupor]

They do exist.

for example endochrinological reasons. medicine side effects.

 

[killer b]

not sure if loss of libido due to medication really counts as asexuality tbh

 

[TruXta]

for example endochrinological reasons. medicine side effects.

Sure, but asexuality is about being more or less permanently disinterested in sexual relations with other people. It's a disposition, not a condition.

 

[Superdupastupor]

oh good point. i guess that i something different.

 

[frogwoman]

And I think the pressure on people to get married early etc doesn't always apply to men as much as it does women.

 

[DaveCinzano]

I'm not saying there aren't asexual people around but...

I suspect that it is attitudes like this - unthinking, non-malicious attitudes a lot of the time - that has driven much of the intersectionality thing into the current political discourse; people who feel sidelined, ignored, overlooked, demeaned or otherwise told that they don't exist/shouldn't feel that way/get over it/"well it never happened like that for me" etc, getting angry and making themselves visible, audible and in-your-face.

Especially with those (generally less discussed/sometimes less obviously identifiable) issues lying outside the 'traditional' triumvirate of gender/race/sexuality (leaving aside class for one moment).

 

[frogwoman]

I suspect that it is attitudes like this - unthinking, non-malicious attitudes a lot of the time - that has driven much of the intersectionality thing into the current political discourse; people who feel sidelined, ignored, overlooked, demeaned or otherwise told that they don't exist/shouldn't feel that way/get over it/"well it never happened like that for me" etc, getting angry and making themselves visible, audible and in-your-face.

Especially with those (generally less discussed/sometimes less obviously identifiable) issues lying outside the 'traditional' triumvirate of gender/race/sexuality (leaving aside class for one moment).

you're right. Sorry.

 

[frogwoman]

what im trying to say (and put it really badly, sorry) is that for a lot of people there are reasons why they don't want to have sex which are nothing to do with the fact that they are born that way. i'd imagine that child abuse etc would be one of them. or people ending up living alone because they are gay and they find it impossible to come out, or because they have BDSM etc fantasies and are really fucking ashamed of them and think there's something wrong with them is another reason. (I do think BDSM people have a claim to being oppressed tbh) Or they may be very repressed, they may not know what they want, or everyone around them might be a dick so they don't fancy them.

of course there are some people who don't want to have sex at all but I'd have thought they'd be a very very small minority. Perhaps I'm wrong though.

 

[Red Cat]

Can you not see how being asexxual in a highly cultural sexualised society would he oppresive? Really ? Pressure to conform they fact that a lot of asexuality is based in a sex abuseand being part of a larger identiy group gives a sense of solidarity

Is pressure to conform always oppression?

 

[TruXta]

of course there are some people who don't want to have sex at all but I'd have thought they'd be a very very small minority. Perhaps I'm wrong though.

THere's little research, what exists suggests asexuals are about 1% of the population. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15497056

 

[Tom A]

That was my first thought - but it says "Intersectionality means people may start to find you very annoying." then nothing challenges that point and it later concludes also "as difficult as it is to be intersectional, it is so necessary." ie it's necessary for even other leftists and your relatives to start finding you annoying

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

 

[Idris2002]

 

[Tom A]

You're going to "out" your dad? Good luck with that...

 

[DotCommunist]

the bdsm thing- changes to the law some years back means its possible for the person being whipped to be nicked as accessory to the 'assault'. Brilliant.

I don't know if thats ever happened though

 

[Tom A]

I have mixed thoughts on whether people who do BDSM are "oppressed"

plainly there's a lot of prejudice/misunderstandings about it but oppression? not sure. to me that like implies something systematic, although i'm sure with some of the laws that are on the books, the operation spanner case etc ...

There's also the argument that BDSM imagery has been appropriated in order to justify oppression.

 

[frogwoman]

There's also the argument that BDSM imagery has been appropriated in order to justify oppression.

well that 50 shades of shit was a good example.

 

[Tom A]

well that 50 shades of shit was a good example.

*nods*

 

[el-ahrairah]

i do believe that a former urbanite did some very good research into asexuality. interesting stuff. many people on ADs report a massive or total loss of their sexual drive - and indeed for some it turns out to be a very liberating positive thing.

 

[tufty79]

Is asexual actually a sexuality though? ?

yes.

I was single and never had sex with anyone for years and never felt oppressed because of it Lonely but not oppressed.

not the same thing.

Can you not see how being asexxual in a highly cultural sexualised society would he oppresive? Really ? Pressure to conform they fact that a lot of asexuality is based in a sex abuseand being part of a larger identiy group gives a sense of solidarity

what im trying to say (and put it really badly, sorry) is that for a lot of people there are reasons why they don't want to have sex which are nothing to do with the fact that they are born that way. i'd imagine that child abuse etc would be one of them. or people ending up living alone because they are gay and they find it impossible to come out, or because they have BDSM etc fantasies and are really fucking ashamed of them and think there's something wrong with them is another reason. (I do think BDSM people have a claim to being oppressed tbh) Or they may be very repressed, they may not know what they want, or everyone around them might be a dick so they don't fancy them.

of course there are some people who don't want to have sex at all but I'd have thought they'd be a very very small minority. Perhaps I'm wrong though.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-16552173

"People say 'well if you've not tried it, then how do you know?'" says Jenni.
"Well if you're straight have you tried having sex with somebody you know of the same sex as you? How do you know you wouldn't enjoy that? You just know that if you're not interested in it, you're not interested in it, regardless of having tried it or not."
...

Fifty or 60 years ago would anyone have actually felt the need to define themselves as asexual or would society have just accepted them not engaging in sexual behaviour?”​

Mark Carrigan, University of Warwick

"There are people who definitely view it as a disorder and are like 'oh if we give you these pills we can fix it'. Or people who ask you 'have you had your hormones checked', as though that's the obvious solution," says Jenni.
"And then you get people who go one step worse, and I have been asked before if I had been molested as a child, which is not an appropriate question to ask somebody to be honest, and also I haven't been. It was the assumption that 'hey you have something wrong with you, clearly you were molested as a child' is just such a terrible attitude to have."

/my underinformed tuppenceworth.

 

[frogwoman]

fair enough. at myself for being so ignorant. sorry.

 

[tufty79]

fair enough. at myself for being so ignorant. sorry.

you're not ignorant at all. it's just coincindental that i've been having a bit of a nerdgasm reading up on asexuality recently (and fwiw if you're ignorant, so am i. i can only speak from a place of experience that involved celibacy/utter terror of sex as a result of abuse/assault in my childhood and recent past. i don't want to tar asexuals with my brush )
e2a: the post above this one was my personal opinion, not The Voice Of Asexuals

 

[sihhi]

I've read it about mostly in terms of survivors of childhood events. In a large number of cases it's as a result of childhood trauma or child abuse. Sometimes it leads to a paraphilia, sometimes to revulsion at sexual contact from other people. If a true asexual has sex, it's rape - it's forcing someone who doesn't want to, to have sex.

The problem comes in systematising it as oppression versus privilege - it's simply a reality, a fact that some humans experience. Even those from within the experience, some say it's a privilege not having to worry about sexual feelings and that it allows enjoyment (sometimes arousal) from different sources, others that it's an oppression based on others' expectations. The majority do feel unhappy about it, hence it is seen as oppression, although would the unhappiness disappear even if everyone said 'asexual who cares?' some asexuals say yes some say no.

What of objectophilia - should it be regarded as an oppression for objectophiles and allies to fight against - it is seen as very odd in almost all cultures - or seen as a reality that simply needs airing - sexual relations with cars or trees is not against the law. Who knows I don't claim to.

What makes little sense is this kind of 'advocacy' degrading majority sexuality (simply because its majority) to promote the minority:

(from wtfsocialjustice) it's an odd form of sexual chauvinism to do this.

 

[tufty79]

Sometimes it leads to a paraphilia, sometimes to revulsion at sexual contact from other people.

ah! shiny new word - thank you

 

[SpineyNorman]

People used to call gay people etc queer when i was at school, I generally don't use it because it brings back some bad memories.

Yeah that's why I asked the question - there was a new lad at an SP meeting the other week who'd come over from Donny to hear one of us speak. I was talking to him and he asked about the LGBT section and I started talking to him about it and some how got around to telling him that some called it the LGBTQ section now. When he asked what the Q stood for and I told him he had exactly the same reaction as you and I don't blame him one bit - when I was a kid nobody was 'out' as gay at my school (they'd have been murdered - while things are still far from perfect I think that's got a lot better now thank God) but anyone who seemed a bit effeminate or whatever got called queer and I'm still not comfortable using the word for that reason. Not that it's any of my business if a gay person (or trans or anything else) wants to call themselves queer but I think you know what I mean.

Edit: just to clarify, the lad at the meeting was gay himself.

 

[Superdupastupor]

Is pressure to conform always oppression?

not always of course. it can be a constant source of empowerment and a sense of self and those you kick against with

yup i did write that without checking up first but yeh pretty sure that i had read that.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Nothing I think - it's just the U in queer - so it's Queer, Intersexual, Lesbian, Trans-sexual, Bisexual, Asexual, and..... I can't remember the G - genderqueer maybe?

Does it count if you're involuntarily asexual? That's been me for about 3 months now (not that I'm counting lol) so I'm wondering if I can be a QUILTBAG.

Serious question now: are people actually discriminated against for being asexual? Genuinely interested to know, I'm not taking the piss.

Edit: ah, I see froggy got there before me - apols, I'll try and read the thread before posting in future!