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Alex Callinicos/SWP vs Laurie Penny/New Statesman Facebook handbags

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at least in the past though they didn't try to pretend they were a voice for or representation of something else, it was a lot more honest back then

the likes of penny & jones just perpetuate & compound the type of thing they are nominally/superficially against
 
love detective said:
at least in the past though they didn't try to pretend they were a voice for or representation of something else, it was a lot more honest back then
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Oxbridge types have also been very prominent in the left, radical journalism, etc. Seems to me that the main difference is that a generation or two ago there were also some genuine working class writers and journalists.
 
Surely there's always been a bit of that going on, though? Do-gooding middle-class radical types are not a new thing, though each generation creates its own variation on the theme.

Edit: that was @ LD ...
 
Random said:
Oxbridge types have also been very prominent in the left, radical journalism, etc. Seems to me that the main difference is that a generation or two ago there were also some genuine working class writers and journalists.
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Well, we had our own papers to train on an work our way up on - even then you should see the number of private school/oxbridge types working for the daily worker.
 
Random said:
Hardly jumped up, rather in her natural station. Private school oxbridge graduates have been dominating the media since ehte beginning of time.
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I was quoting David Starkey for my own ends. That's what her Bigotaurus Ridiculus thing is about. I don't agree with Starkey re Rochdale, before someone barges in.
 
Starkey accused her of wanting such a huge fee for a little talk that their joint Thomas Paine Society lecture was called off - is that right?
 
i don't think sexism on the left is exactly a new or controversial thing. on a demo i was on some years ago i was told "you're very knowledgeable for a woman" and of course left wing politics has its fair share of predatory men in it from gerry healy to that other guy.

don't doubt there's an element of that with the penny thing.

however, i've got a massive problem with her as well. she's an embarrassment and she'll be writing the same type of purple prose in favour of right-wing ideologies in 30 years. i also find it fairly nauseating the way that she claims to speak for an entire generation as well
 
butchersapron said:
Starkey accused her of wanting such a huge fee for a little talk that their joint Thomas Paine Society lecture was called off - is that right?
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Could be wrong, but I thought the exchange was initially about his comments over the Rochdale scum, but then later escalated into other things.
 
Random said:
Oxbridge types have also been very prominent in the left, radical journalism, etc. Seems to me that the main difference is that a generation or two ago there were also some genuine working class writers and journalists.
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yeah fair enough - I was kind of conflating then & now with oxbridge types who are more honest about what they are & represent and those are not
 
i wouldn't have a problem with her being middle class, i'm middle class ffs. it's the fact that she's basically a shit version of hari and the stuff she says is so fucking laughable, that and she assumes that her experiences are typical of everyone. people like her actually do damage to the left because they make politics look like a children's game. she doesn't appear to take it seriously.
 
Captain Hurrah said:
Could be wrong, but I thought the exchange was initially about his comments over the Rochdale scum, but then later escalated into other things.
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Not followed any of it, but did hear that over the weekend. Just wondering if anyone knew if there was any truth in that specific claim (not really interested in two panto dames going at each other, and i'm not going to back penny on some spurious outdated anti-imperialist grounds either!).
 
temper_tantrum said:
Sorry for the Daily Fail link, but this appears to give a fairly detailed narrative of what happened:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-gang-values-entrenched-foothills-Punjab.html
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Come on, let's not miss out on this three-for-three:

As Miss Penny continued speaking, Claire Fox, director of the Insittue of Idea think tank stood up and told the journalist who has written for The Independent and the Guardian, that she was a disgrace to both women and the left.
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I just find it a bit baffling that one not-very-famous person is sufficiently interesting/indignation-worthy to generate a 68-page (and counting) thread.
Yes, she's a massive self-promoter and a bit second-rate (and utterly lacking in self-awareness). So are lots of young journalists out there. The Guardian for example is positively swarming with them, as is the New Statesman, and the Indy. I suppose that the ground which LP has occupied - youth protest and radical politics - is a particular irritant for the kind of people who frequent u75, but I still think it's a bit sad and obsessive and weird to be so fixated on her.
 
temper_tantrum said:
I just find it a bit baffling that one not-very-famous person is sufficiently interesting/indignation-worthy to generate a 68-page (and counting) thread.
Yes, she's a massive self-promoter and a bit second-rate (and utterly lacking in self-awareness). So are lots of young journalists out there. The Guardian for example is positively swarming with them, as is the New Statesman, and the Indy. I suppose that the ground which LP has occupied - youth protest and radical politics - is a particular irritant for the kind of people who frequent u75, but I still think it's a bit sad and obsessive and weird to be so fixated on her.
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Don't forget the Torygraph! Donata Huggins?
 
temper_tantrum said:
I just find it a bit baffling that one not-very-famous person is sufficiently interesting/indignation-worthy to generate a 68-page (and counting) thread.
Yes, she's a massive self-promoter and a bit second-rate (and utterly lacking in self-awareness). So are lots of young journalists out there. The Guardian for example is positively swarming with them, as is the New Statesman, and the Indy. I suppose that the ground which LP has occupied - youth protest and radical politics - is a particular irritant for the kind of people who frequent u75, but I still think it's a bit sad and obsessive and weird to be so fixated on her.
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It would be a bit sad if the whole thread was devoted to rigorous, tight-lipped doctrinal disapproval of Ms Penny's antics but actually, what's great about it is that she's a classic, middle-class, attention-seeking 'rebel' - a sort of female version of Rick off 'the Young Ones' - and that makes her a genuine comedy goldmine.
 
Ade-oh said:
It would be a bit sad if the whole thread was devoted to rigorous, tight-lipped doctrinal disapproval of Ms Penny's antics
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The thread began in recognition not of 'disapproved of doctrine' but of her out-and-out fabrications, made-up quotes, misrepresentations, recuperative narratives and lucrative saddling up upon youthful social movements.

It's less that she's a self-deluding child of privilege in denial; more that she's a thief, a liar and a charlatan.
 
DaveCinzano said:
The thread began in recognition not of 'disapproved of doctrine' but of her out-and-out fabrications, made-up quotes, misrepresentations, recuperative narratives and lucrative saddling up upon youthful social movements.

It's less that she's a self-deluding child of privilege in denial; more that she's a thief, a liar and a charlatan.
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Yeah fair enough I suppose.
Out of interest, is she the *worst*, do you think? Or are there other journalists out there whose work needs keeping an eye on in the same way?
 
temper_tantrum said:
Yeah fair enough I suppose.
Out of interest, is she the *worst*, do you think? Or are there other journalists out there whose work needs keeping an eye on in the same way?
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She's a tragi-comedy recuperator. Someone like G Monbiot or Naomi Klein has far more clout, and is far more reponsible for pushing eco/"anti capitalism" protests towards liberalism. It's a general phenomenon, and we gossip about them because they're supposedly on our side.
 
I doubt she's the worst, but she is a particularly noteworthy one given her willingness to be feted as a spokeswoman for a generation/movement/etc whilst simultaneously smothering the actual voices that provide her with her well-remunerated copy.

Even the journalists pushing forward important stories can have big fat question marks hanging over them for the way they handles sources, information and relationships (Paul Lewis, Shiv Malik etc).
 
Random said:
She's a tragi-comedy recuperator. Someone like G Monbiot or Naomi Klein has far more clout...
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In such company one could also throw in the likes of Noreena Hertz (academic, though media-friendly and conveniently spoused to a Beeb bigwig) and John Vidal. Neither seem as omnipresent as once they were though. O the fickle winds of fate!

Anecdote corner: Vidal looked very uncomfortable when his presence (whilst trawling for colour at a large summit-hop event) was loudly noted to the assembled Euro-insurrectionists by a UK hand :D A touch of the "it's my valet's day off" about him.
 
Good riddance to Noreena Hertz. Demonstrated the extreme poverty of those "anti globalist" days when she could be used as a voice of the movement, appear at protest events, etc. seeing as how she was involved in administering shock therapy to the former USSR
 
Vidal is just a journalist reporting on his beat for liberals. Never saw him as an organic part of any movement at all
 
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