Alex Callinicos/SWP vs Laurie Penny/New Statesman Facebook handbags

[butchersapron]

LOL no I just don't see the point in having to constantly refer back to the events of the early 20th century to define myself ideologically, and I think that constantly invoking Lenin and/or Trotsky all the time is fucking stupid in the year 2012. I'm just a socialist.

No one said that you have to in order be a trot, esp not a secret trot.

 

[Random]

Whoa hold your horses there a moment, trots are in favour of a capitalist society? Really? Are they? Coz I've been rubbing shoulders with trots of various types for years now and that's not something i've ever encoutered before.

All the transitional demands that trots put forwards, plus the way they see a post-revolution society working, amount to a capitalist society, with labour being exploited and power exercised by an elite. Haven't you read any Trotsky, or trotskyist literature?

 

[butchersapron]

All the transitional demands that trots put forwards, plus the way they see a post-revolution society working, amount to a capitalist society, with labour being exploited and power exercised by an elite. Haven't you read any Trotsky, or trotskyist literature?

That's the past man, who cares about the past?

 

[Random]

Morrison knows exactly what he is doing and the so-called hackwork has been part of his plan from the begining, it in no way a deviation or a "selling out" or surrendering of his former work.

All his work forms part of a rich tapestrey of 'things Grant Morrison is interested in'. You just don't like some of it.

How do you know this? I assumed that he'd followed a simple progression, from animal rights, on to situ and anarchism, pushing his genre to its limit, and then oddly turned back into classical superheroes.

I still really enjoyed 7 soliders. It was just bizarre to see all this technical brilliance, and original thinking, presented within the narrow genre of unreconstructed big business superheroes. Almost like he's doing it as a technical exercise. When's the next foray into biting the hand that feeds him?

 

[Delroy Booth]

All the transitional demands that trots put forwards, plus the way they see a post-revolution society working, amount to a capitalist society, with labour being exploited and power exercised by an elite. Haven't you read any Trotsky, or trotskyist literature?

Yeah I've read the transitional program if that's what you're asking. And I'm pretty sure that they'd see it in a different way, but I'd rather let a card-carrying trotskyite and advocate of that take up that argument with you tbh.

I love the way anarchists have this belligerently naive faith that all you need for Full Communism is to smash the state and declare private property over and society will instantaneously become communist, as if libertarian communism were some sort of default that all human societies would revert to if only we did away with those pesky trots/fash/all the same.

 

[butchersapron]

You need to slowly smash it via transitional demands that teach the w/c how to cook and govern and all looked over by a benevolent socialist beforehand. Clearly.

 

[butchersapron]

Not much of a reader then delroy?

 

[Random]

libertarian communism were some sort of default that all human societies would revert to if only we did away with those pesky trots/fash/all the same.

In many ways the struggle against Fascism begins with the striggle against Bolshevism.

 

[Random]

Yeah I've read the transitional program if that's what you're asking. And I'm pretty sure that they'd see it in a different way, but I'd rather let a card-carrying trotskyite and advocate of that take up that argument with you tbh.

Then why did you take up the argument about trotskyism and capitalism in the first place? Over-confidence?

 

[DotCommunist]

Morrison knows exactly what he is doing and the so-called hackwork has been part of his plan from the begining, it in no way a deviation or a "selling out" or surrendering of his former work.

All his work forms part of a rich tapestrey of 'things Grant Morrison is interested in'. You just don't like some of it.

It was wank when he wrote himself into one of his comics. Animal Man I think. I remember reading it in the library and thinking 'this is him having an absolute bash'

 

[emanymton]

In many ways the struggle against Fascism begins with the striggle against Bolshevism.

Do you really believe this?

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

How do you know this? I assumed that he'd followed a simple progression, from animal rights, on to situ and anarchism, pushing his genre to its limit, and then oddly turned back into classical superheroes.

I still really enjoyed 7 soliders. It was just bizarre to see all this technical brilliance, and original thinking, presented within the narrow genre of unreconstructed big business superheroes. Almost like he's doing it as a technical exercise. When's the next foray into biting the hand that feeds him?

I think it's clear if you go back and read his columns/letter pages in Invisibles, and old interviews with him, all the way through to his 'Supergods' book. He has always loved the mainstream superheroes and wanted to tell stories with them in, in as many different ways as possible, including the big trad blockbuster styles, while also being free to go off the beaten track and explore his other interests either within the mainstream or seperate to it.

As for biting the hand that feeds him - he has never ever done that in my knowledge; he has always played by the rules even as far as making new rules that others now have to follow.

 

[Delroy Booth]

Then why did you take up the argument about trotskyism and capitalism in the first place? Over-confidence?

I just spotted some outrageously sectarian anarchism popping up in the thread and felt like shooting it down. By all means criticize the transitional program, it's not something I'd feel inclined to tribally defend, but I wouldn't call it capitalism.

Also, in the "struggle against bolshevism" what sort of measures would you like to take against non-anarchists? Does this include all "trots" or just any socialist you don't like particularly? I'd love to know more.

 

[butchersapron]

secret bolshevik

 

[Delroy Booth]

secret bolshevik

C'mon you know the protocol it's crytpo-bolshevik why let a good opportunity to use the word crypto slip away from you like that? Very poor butchers, must do better.

 

[discokermit]

transitional demands are fibbing to the class.

 

[discokermit]

In many ways the struggle against Fascism begins with the striggle against Bolshevism.

so what's your plan?

here's one, join the edl to get rid of the trots! go on, i dare ya.

then you can turn your guns on the edl!

 

[DotCommunist]

but surely the trots are the memory and spirit of the class so they simply articulate what is needed on behalf of those too busy at toil to imagine or work towards

 

[Random]

I think it's clear if you go back and read his columns/letter pages in Invisibles, and old interviews with him, all the way through to his 'Supergods' book. He has always loved the mainstream superheroes and wanted to tell stories with them in, in as many different ways as possible, including the big trad blockbuster styles, while also being free to go off the beaten track and explore his other interests either within the mainstream or seperate to it.

As for biting the hand that feeds him - he has never ever done that in my knowledge; he has always played by the rules even as far as making new rules that others now have to follow.

The end of Animal Man, which DC didn't like, I thought was a fine piece of anti-comicbook writing. Ripping apart the cliches that this sub-genre depends on. Plus advocating hunt sabbing, mentioning the ALF, etc. And the Invisibles was so densly anarcho-situ-occult as to be barely readable for an anarcho-situ like me. Hardly commercial.

So what stuff off the beaten track is he doing now?

 

[DotCommunist]

Smash the state one TU victory at a time.



*guns, guns, guns, get you guns put the pigs on the run* etc etc

 

[Captain Hurrah]

The journo ideal of being an objective observer is just a liberal fig leaf, though. Journalists are not objective; they are driven to produce profitable copy for their employers, who are usually capitalist businesses.

Yup.

 

[Random]

Do you really believe this?

How long have you been posting on u75?

 

[Delroy Booth]

so what's your plan?

here's one, join the edl to get rid of the trots! go on, i dare ya.

then you can turn your guns on the edl!

Surely the only logical conclusion to that is for militant anti-fascists to physically attack trots/stalinists/democratic socialists/wrong type of anarchists/TU bureacrats/marxists/etc

No doubt the poor bastard on the SWP stall in lewisham today who got hospitalised was a minor victory in the anarchists war on fascism.

 

[Random]

Also, in the "struggle against bolshevism" what sort of measures would you like to take against non-anarchists? Does this include all "trots" or just any socialist you don't like particularly? I'd love to know more.

Don't worry - only proportionate measures.

 

[DotCommunist]

The end of Animal Man, which DC didn't like, I thought was a fine piece of anti-comicbook writing. Ripping apart the cliches that this sub-genre depends on. Plus advocating hunt sabbing, mentioning the ALF, etc. And the Invisibles was so densly anarcho-situ-occult as to be barely readable for an anarcho-situ like me. Hardly commercial.

So what stuff off the beaten track is he doing now?

I managed to negotiate Invisibles based on R A Shea, illuminatus etc. It's esoteric in themes but not impenetrable.

 

[Delroy Booth]

Don't worry - only proportionate measures.

Ooh this sounds interesting? Do tell me more.

 

[Random]

Surely the only logical conclusion to that is for militant anti-fascists to physically attack trots/stalinists/democratic socialists/wrong type of anarchists/TU bureacrats/marxists/etc

This kind of approach just betrays a lack of historical understanding. In the past 100 years it's mostly been anarchists getting massacred by state socialists. Is it odd thatr some anarchists should get fed up at this, and try to stop this happening?

 

[Random]

I managed to negotiate Invisibles based on R A Shea, illuminatus etc. It's esoteric in themes but not impenetrable.

Bully for you, but the massed ranks of RA Shea readers hardly constitute a commercial demographic.

 

[butchersapron]

Can you tell us how to aid your struggle for Bolshevism please?

C'mon you know the protocol it's crytpo-bolshevik why let a good opportunity to use the word crypto slip away from you like that? Very poor butchers, must do better.

 

[Random]

Ooh this sounds interesting? Do tell me more.

Meet words with words, fists with fists, bullets with more bullets...