Alex Callinicos/SWP vs Laurie Penny/New Statesman Facebook handbags

[DotCommunist]

Why do state-socialists get all prima donna and defensive when people point out some flaws in their politics? Hardly a rational response. Maybe there's some guilt buried there?

What does history tell us about anarchism?

 

[Random]

What does history tell us about anarchism?

Can you give us a clue?

 

[DotCommunist]

Starter for points, Begins on the theme of F.

(in my case it is 'f' for 'fucking off to deal with a drama llama and coming back to this massively scintillating debate later ) adieu!

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

Starter for points, Begins on the theme of F.

(in my case it is 'f' for 'fucking off to deal with a drama llama and coming back to this massively scintillating debate later ) adieu!

Coward

 

[DotCommunist]

lickspittle

 

[rekil]

So I was browsing for hedge funds and diamonds and came across this.

 

[Random]

lickspittle

Paper tiger

 

[ViolentPanda]

That's a peculiar sort of sentiment to choose to RT given the scrutiny she's been subjected to isn't it? If I didn't know any better I'd say it looks a bit like a tacit admission of guilt.

Not really. Penny thinks she's being awfully clever and getting a poke in at patriarchy at the same time. That the line she re-tweeted can be read as you state is an unfortunate product of her skill in not actually thinking about what she writes.

 

[andy2002]

A quick read of that makes it seem as sad as RMP3 or TBH's 'feud' with a certain anarchist poster on here. Has Moore even responded to this psychic warfare?

Moore started it according to Morrison. Years ago when he was just starting out, Morrison had a Marvelman story accepted by Warrior and wrote to Moore to ask for his 'blessing'. Apparently Moore sent back this really weird and mildly threatening letter warning him off and Morrison was none too impressed.

 

[ViolentPanda]

^ This is Anarchism in practice

Don't be foolish, boy. Go and stand in the corner if you've nothing sensible to say.

 

[ViolentPanda]

No one said that you have to in order be a trot, esp not a secret trot.

TBF, I don't reckon there's many "secret Trots". Most of 'em would "out" themselves in short order, just as soon as you said anything that Lev might have disagreed with.

 

[ViolentPanda]

All the transitional demands that trots put forwards, plus the way they see a post-revolution society working, amount to a capitalist society, with labour being exploited and power exercised by an elite. Haven't you read any Trotsky, or trotskyist literature?

But...but...they promise that the transitional state will be transistional, and that they won't grab power and then cling onto it like a monkey to a branch! They promise!!!

 

[ViolentPanda]

Or I see you saying he meant I post on here with trots don't i therefore I don't really believe it, as per my previous post or not. Are all anarchists so fucking cryptic?

Are you sure it's anarchists being cryptic, rather than you being obtuse?

 

[ViolentPanda]

For the record I have seen 'anarchists' at the end of an ant-war demo threatening people on an SWP still with bottles and that pisses me of.

I'd threaten swappies on a still, selling their lethal Trot cabbage vodka alongside the papers, the cunts!

 

[ViolentPanda]

What does history tell us about anarchism?

That we always get stabbed in the back by the sell-out statists.

 

[DotCommunist]

This should tell you to function as the conscience/counterbalance to a socialist regime actually capable of being more than state capitalism or soc/dec.shit you can even have little badges.

 

[Delroy Booth]

Why do state-socialists get all prima donna and defensive when people point out some flaws in their politics? Hardly a rational response. Maybe there's some guilt buried there?

Because the term "state-socialist" has absolutely no nuance, and lumps together literally everyone who's not an anarchist into one category as if it were one whole thing, when it blatantly isn't. It implies that literally everyone who's not an anarchist is a proponent of mass murder and tyrannical dictatorship. And that they're also captialists. And fascists. And then, to top it off, they're too dogmatic and sectarian, which is perfectly true, but just a little bit lacking in self-awareness.

And I'd love for you to try pointing out some flaws in my politics but you've clearly got it into your head that I'm a crude stereoype of a trot from the 1970's.

 

[butchersapron]

^ This is Anarchism in practice

Cor, look at the nuance on that.

 

[frogwoman]

well i was not going to reply to this, but i have just been reading "anarchist faq" and found something interesting to say the least.

I.5.12 Would an anarchist society provide health care and other public services?

It depends on the type of anarchist society you are talking about. Different anarchists propose different solutions.
In an individualist-mutualist society, for example, health care and other public services would be provided by individuals or co-operatives on a pay-for-use basis. It would be likely that individuals or co-operatives/associations would subscribe to various insurance providers or enter into direct contracts with health care providers. Thus the system would be similar to privatised health care but without the profit margins as competition, it is hoped, would drive prices down to cost.
Other anarchists reject such a system. They are in favour of socialising health care and other public services. They argue that a privatised system would only be able to meet the requirements of those who can afford to pay for it and so would be unjust and unfair. In addition, such systems would have higher overheads (the need to pay share-holders and the wages of management, most obviously) as well as charge more (privatised public utilities under capitalism have tended to charge consumers more, unsurprisingly as by their very nature they are natural monopolies).

...

Thus, as would be expected, public services would be organised by the public, organised in their syndicates and communes. They would be based on workers' self-management of their daily work and of the system as a whole. Non-workers who took part in the system (patients, students) would not be ignored and would also play a role in providing essential feedback to assure quality control of services and to ensure that the service is responsive to users needs. The resources required to maintain and expand the system would be provided by the communes, syndicates and their federations. For the first time, public services would truly be public and not a statist system imposed upon the public from above nor a system by which the few fleece the many by exploiting natural monopolies for their own interests. Public Services in a free society will be organised by those who do the work and under the effective control of those who use them.
Finally, this vision of public services being run by workers' associations could be raised as a valid libertarian reform under capitalism (not to mention raising the demand to turn firms into co-operatives when they are bailed out during economic crisis). Equally, rather than nationalisation or privatisation, public utilities could be organised as a consumer co-operative (i.e., owned by those who use it) while the day-to-day running could be in the hands of a producer co-operative.

transitional demands and privatisation. Lol.
i'm not saying the anarcho faq represents all anarchists, obviously, i just thought it was funny

talk about a john lewis economy, jesus

 

[redsquirrel]

This is very poor.

If people want to have this debate they need to start a new thread in theory - "Is Bolshevism as bad as Fascism round 2".

 

[co-op]

Bolshevism is WORSE than fascism!! A thousand times!!






Anarchists LOL.

 

[frogwoman]

im just lolling at the anarchist transitional demands

"turn the bailed out banks into cooperatives as a transitional step towards the abolition of the state!" i know not every anarchist, especially on here, takes that faq as gospel but even so

 

[Random]

im just lolling at the anarchist transitional demands

You're not actually using that term correctly - it's not actually what Trotsky and his followers meant by transitional demands. Probably because you're not really a trotskyist, just a socialist who happens to be in a trot organisation.

 

[frogwoman]

what are they then? the idea of demanding that public services be turned into cooperatives rather than "state-based nationalisation", presumably as a step on the road to anarchism? The anarchist faq is basically advocating demanding that the state turn these services into cooperatives rather than privatise or nationalise them

 

[Random]

ANYWAY

Just for the record, my original line quoting the old demo chant of "first the bosses...then the trots" was clearly a joke,seeing as it also included journalists on the list of enemies, and I've just admitted to being one myself. And, as about three old-timers on this thread have noticed, my quote about "the fight against fascism begins with the fight against bolshevism" refers to an old thread on U75, a 140-page monstrosity, iirc, of leninists versus anarchists, about ten years ago. Here's the council-communist pamphlet that was the inspiration http://libcom.org/library/fight-against-fascism-begins-with-fight-against-bolshevism-ruhle.

I don't think that trots are class enemies, I don't think that most 'trots' are even trotskyists or leninists. And I certainly don't see the SWP as worse than the EDL, or anything llike that. Of course.

And I'd like to dedicate this troll to ernestolynch and jimmer, wherever they are now.

 

[frogwoman]

And even if you're right about the transitional demands thing what is this?

In an individualist-mutualist society, for example, health care and other public services would be provided by individuals or co-operatives on a pay-for-use basis. It would be likely that individuals or co-operatives/associations would subscribe to various insurance providers or enter into direct contracts with health care providers. Thus the system would be similar to privatised health care but without the profit margins as competition, it is hoped, would drive prices down to cost.

 

[butchersapron]

what are they then? the idea of demanding that public services be turned into cooperatives rather than "state-based nationalisation", presumably as a step on the road to anarchism? The anarchist faq is basically advocating demanding that the state turn these services into cooperatives rather than privatise or nationalise them

No it doesn't. You can do better than this.

 

[butchersapron]

And even if you're right about the transitional demands thing what is this?

That's an accurate description of pro-market individualist anarchism.

 

[frogwoman]

(note, i'm not saying you subscribe to everything in that FAQ, as I don't think you do)

 

[butchersapron]

ANYWAY

Just for the record, my original line quoting the old demo chant of "first the bosses...then the trots" was clearly a joke,seeing as it also included journalists on the list of enemies, and I've just admitted to being one myself. And, as about three old-timers on this thread have noticed, my quote about "the fight against fascism begins with the fight against bolshevism" refers to an old thread on U75, a 140-page monstrosity, iirc, of leninists versus anarchists, about ten years ago. Here's the council-communist pamphlet that was the inspiration http://libcom.org/library/fight-against-fascism-begins-with-fight-against-bolshevism-ruhle.

I don't think that trots are class enemies, I don't think that most 'trots' are even trotskyists or leninists. And I certainly don't see the SWP as worse than the EDL, or anything llike that. Of course.

And I'd like to dedicate this troll to ernestolynch and jimmer, wherever they are now.

That's Ruhle whose pamphlet was a defence of socialism as against the USSR, Ruhle who was on the dewey commission that cleared trotsky and ruhle who trotsky described (wrongly) as the greatest living marxist scholar after ryanazov.

OMG they're calling us fascists!!!!!!!