Alex Callinicos/SWP vs Laurie Penny/New Statesman Facebook handbags

[frogwoman]

No it doesn't. You can do better than this.

Sorry yeah, just read it again and it doesn't have to be the state doing it - people working in the industry could do this by themselves, if i'm understanding this correctly? In which case fair enough, but it was quite ambiguously phrased - i think the "libertarian reform under capitalism" part confused me!

 

[Random]

what are they then? the idea of demanding that public services be turned into cooperatives rather than "state-based nationalisation", presumably as a step on the road to anarchism? The anarchist faq is basically advocating demanding that the state turn these services into cooperatives rather than privatise or nationalise them

I've not read the anarchist FAQ myself, but isn't it basically a smörgasbord of anarchist ideas, rather than a position paper? Some anarchists surely do believe in going for libertarian reforms under capitalism. But that's not what trotskyist transitional demands are. These are reforms that are called for, in the knowledge that they cannot be met. A quick google finds this trotsky quote.

"By means of this struggle, no matter what immediate practical successes may be, the workers will best come to understand the necessity of liquidating capitalist slavery."

 

[Random]

And even if you're right about the transitional demands thing what is this?

Did you miss the bit where this position was attributed to individualist-mutualist anarchists. Those would be proudhonists, iirc. Never met one myself.,

 

[frogwoman]

I've not read the anarchist FAQ myself, but isn't it basically a smörgasbord of anarchist ideas, rather than a position paper? Some anarchists surely do believe in going for libertarian reforms under capitalism. But that's not what trotskyist transitional demands are. These are reforms that are called for, in the knowledge that they cannot be met. A quick google finds this trotsky quote.

"By means of this struggle, no matter what immediate practical successes may be, the workers will best come to understand the necessity of liquidating capitalist slavery."

I know what transitional demands are, but some of the stuff advocated on there would also be pretty unlikely if not impossible to achieve under capitalism (unless i suppose the workers bought the service that was being privatised out and ran it themselves, or were able to keep out whoever did get the contract for it successfully).

And fair enough - it does seem to be more of a description rather than a position paper.

 

[Random]

I know what transitional demands are, but some of the stuff advocated on there would also be pretty unlikely if not impossible to achieve under capitalism (unless i suppose the workers bought the service that was being privatised out and ran it themselves, or were able to keep out whoever did get the contract for it successfully).

I think failed businesses becoming coops has happened in some times of economic crisis, like in Argentina. I agree as a general demand it does sound very unlikely. Never heard of any anarcho goup making this call, though, whereas in trotskyism organising around unrealisable demands are one of the key ideas.

 

[rekil]

Bizarre misreading of and shit response to Gove's wet nonsense from the other day.

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinio...on-but-im-still-not-on-your-team-7737823.html

In 2003, I was informed by a teacher that I would be applying to Oxford. I was the smartest kid in a smart school which needed to boost its Oxbridge figures: there was no question. The only trouble is, I was shy, had a stutter and a tendency to twitch. So a teacher was roped in to practice the interviews with me, to teach me to speak more clearly and be confident in my ideas, to act– I'll never forget this – as if I had a right to be there.

I'm surprised she didn't list her exam grades. And I bet that teacher took the form of a burning shrubbery.

 

[frogwoman]

.

 

[frogwoman]

i've never walked into a job or anything else for that matter thinking i had a right to be there. i never had interviews for any unis i applied to and would have almost certainly failed if i had.

 

[Ade-oh]

Bizarre misreading of and shit response to Gove's wet nonsense from the other day.

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinio...on-but-im-still-not-on-your-team-7737823.html

I'm surprised she didn't list her exam grades. And I bet that teacher took the form of a burning shrubbery.

She's weirdly desperate to hide her obvious ambition - and success - behind her facade as a constant victim of 'the man' bravely rallying the resistance... most amusing!

 

[Bakunin]

She's weirdly desperate to hide her obvious ambition - and success - behind her facade as a constant victim of 'the man' bravely rallying the resistance... most amusing!

'Infamy! Infamy! They've all got it in for me!'

 

[_angel_]

tiny man's suit

 

[love detective]

bring me a tiny man's suit and some pak choi - NOW!

 

[frogwoman]

He made a particular point of naming and shaming left-wing journalists – including myself. In the eight years since I left Brighton College, hundreds of people, most of them right-wingers, have suggested that the fact that I went to a private school and then to Oxford places indelible inverted commas around any radical sentiments I may espouse. That notion – that there is some element of hypocrisy at play if "radical" journalists have been to private schools – betrays an important prejudice.

no laurie, it's the fact you post dishonest self aggrandising bollocks

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

tiny man's suit

With a tiny man inside

 

[love detective]

any tiny men?

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

any tiny men?

how tall are you love detective can I call you love detective?

 

[love detective]

yes you can call me that

i'm 5'7" (and a half) - not a tiny man but not a huge man either

how tall are you spanky longhorn can i call you spanky longhorn

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

yes you can call me that

i'm 5'7" (and a half) - not a tiny man but not a huge man either

how tall are you spanky longhorn can i call you spanky longhorn

yes you can call me that.

I'm 6'4" (and a quarter) - not a huge man, but a tall man

 

[love detective]

i thought i was taller than you - i'm not saying you're a tiny man but if I was then I would be

 

[rekil]

USA was built on racism and genocide at home. UK built on same but abroad, out of sight till recently.

Smartest kid in a smart school you say.

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

i thought i was taller than you - i'm not saying you're a tiny man but if I was then I would be

No I'm a little taller than you, not saying your saying that but if you were you would be

 

[love detective]

i see what you're saying

(not saying that's what you're saying mind, just that I can see what you would be saying if you were saying it, which your not)

 

[_angel_]

yes you can call me that

i'm 5'7" (and a half) - not a tiny man but not a huge man either

how tall are you spanky longhorn can i call you spanky longhorn

You're still tall from where I'm standing.

 

[love detective]

i see what you're saying angel can i call you maddy?

 

[killer b]

the fuck are you dicks on about?

 

[love detective]

any tiny men?

 

[love detective]

please send a tiny man's suit, even if you don't have a tiny mans suit, please send a tiny mans suit

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

the fuck are you dicks on about?

 

[love detective]

if there had have been something there he wouldn't have fallen but there wasn't so he went to lean on something that wasn't there and he fell through the bit where there should have been something there but wasn't - iyswim

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

yep