frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
that sounds familiar.
Alex Callinicos/SWP vs Laurie Penny/New Statesman Facebook handbags
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that sounds familiar.
imposs1904
Thread Killa'
I've never seen Di Caprio so lifelike in a role.
BigTom
Well-Known Member
There's potentially an interesting game mechanic here which this could have and that's one where players choose their starting background and this acts as a handicap system.
Build a properly tactical game on top of that and you can either have a game where skill levels are evened out or one where some people (rich parents, oxbridge, daddy edits the telegraph) have an early game advantage where others (working class, left school at 16) get advantages in the mid/late game.
This all fits thematically, and would be interesting... it's going in my note pad of ideas
BigTom
Well-Known Member
I think you can go a step further with this tbh.
If you're friends with people or spend a fair amount of time with someone you don't need to ask them what they want, you know from being part of their lives.
To a lesser extent if you're part of a community you get the same thing as your concerns will often be shared by other people.
"Activists" though have their only community with other "activists" and can never even come close to not needing to ask people what they want, and subsequently I can't see such people/groupings/attitude (I'm struggling fit the right word here) ever helping to bring about a situation where no-one is asking what anyone else wants cos people are self organising and don't need to be asked.
BigTom
Well-Known Member
I'm not disagreeing with you at all
I think it's not quite this / more than this though - they don't think they know everything but their only community is other activists so these are the people they ask when they don't know. They are not really even part of the other communities they might belong to, like at work if they have a normal job, because they see themselves as seperate. Other people at work are just people to be complained about to other activists or surprised by if they happen to show a correct view then confused about like how can they see this but not that? They have entirely separated themselves from the communities they see themselves as helping and maintain that separation rigidly, their personal lives and political lives have become one and the same but in a way that separates themselves from other people. I'd rather the personal/political divide gets broken down but in a way that happens because you are not separated from other people.
Although I recognise that asking people what they want is not just something that always needs to happen it's also the right way to do things, there is within that an inherent (risk of) separation (I'm going to ask people what they want then I can do it for them) which exists that imo we should be aiming to remove. The ideal state is one in which we don't ask people what they want either because their lives and ours are interlinked enough that we share concerns / are aware of each others concerns or because other people will tell us and all we need to do is listen and discuss. The first bit can never exist in totality, only for a fairly small number of people (maybe hundreds at most, maybe not even that - there's some really interesting stuff about psychology of groups and how many friends and acquantances and stuff people have, I can only remember that 5-10, 100 and 600-700 were fairly significant and often repeating sizes of groups).
The second I'd like to believe it can and as long as you are asking people what they want and listening to them you are doing something that hopefully works towards that, but doing the listening part requires you to see the other person as part of your community.
love detective
there's no love too small
I agree with what you're getting at - but there's a danger of making an enemy out of explicit 'asking' - an avoidance of 'asking' can lead to the exact same thing that we rightly criticise penny and co for. It's not so much asking in itself that's a problem, it's more who is doing the asking, how they do it and what they then do after that
A core part of the IWCA pilot schemes were questionnaire & consultative based canvassing - as once you go beyond a handful of people, while you may have a good idea what the most pressing issues & concerns are, the asking thing does a number of good things. It creates and stimulates engagement and discussion about those very issues and possible solutions, encourages collective ownership of the problem, shows people that they are not the only ones with the same concerns, and also can pick up things that are not immediately on the radar of others. For example one survey led thing of another group in Glasgow, revealed that the biggest annoyance amongst women surveyed was that it was near on impossible for washing machines to be used effectively above a certain floor due to poor water pressure/pumps. Off the back of that a campaign was organised to force the council to install appropriate pumps which solved the problem. Small wins like that on unexpected issues that were not immediately on the radar builds confidence in people and the idea of self organising around other issues. The very fact that the starting point is not promising to build castles on the sand is what gives these kind of approaches the potential to achieve the capacity to gain some kind of momentum and genuine bottom up strength
Another thing about asking (and then engaging) is that it subjects your own beliefs & theories to a fairly vigorous testing and forces you to reassess these if it appears they are not fit for purpose. For example, entangling the perception of the connection between social/economic problems and race/ethnicity. When you genuinely ask people about stuff (people outside the own self selecting groups that most lefties/progressives belong to), it's never going to be the nice clean un-contradictory outlook that you get through purely living in a world of disconnected liberal theory. Not that the likes of Penny and co would ever be stood on a doorstep in a working class community, but if they were you can imagine their reaction to anyone who, when asked, talked about these problems through the prism of race/ethnicity. A progressive class bassed and uncompromising critique of multiculturalism is far better than just writing people off from the get go as lost cause and racist. Likewise other prickly issues like working class on working class anti-social behaviour can't just be magicked away by talk of capitalism makes them do it - they require real engagement with, but sometimes it can be easier to avoid these topics, by not asking!
flypanam
Sausage to fortune
As is Alan Ginsburg lAURA has written a poem for the '50 shades of feminism' collection based, on...wait...You won't believe it...Howl.
andysays
Love and solidarity
I'm trying to imagine what that might be like:
I saw the best minds of my generation destroyed by madness, starving hysterical
dragging themselves through the negro (note - check with one of my many black friends for the most acceptable current expression) streets at dawn looking for an angry fix of self-righteous liberal moralism,
angelheaded hipsters burning for the ancient heavenly connection to the starry dynamo in the machinery of night,
who poverty and tatters and hollow-eyed and high sat up smoking and drinking tea, don't forget the tea in the supernatural darkness of cold-water flatshares with other members of their faux-radical bohemian literary network floating across the tops of cities contemplating jazz (should this perhaps be updated to something more contemporary,or left for its original flavour?),
Please add your own suggestions. This might be worthy of a whole thread of its own...
(edited to hopefully make the line spacing work better)
J Ed
Follow Back Pro Expropriation
What is the general opinion of the IWCA critique of multiculturalism on Urban? I read it recently and I thought it was pretty brilliant, I don't imagine that it's a narrative that people outside of student unions and the tiny minority who benefit financially from state multiculturalism would object to either.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
sihhi
Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered
Here she is at that event.
3rd from left Natasha Walter, a leftist but managed to claim Thatcher represents something good in one of her books. At the podium is psychotherapist-psychoanalyst Susie Orbach, just behind to her left is Rachel Holmes, senior manager at Amazon for a while, now a writer. To Orbach's right Radio 4 hero Sandi Toksvig, behind Toksvig is Labour actor Juliet Stevenson house in Hampstead (LOL) who also was a strong supporter of anti-MMR doctor Andrew Wakefield.
To Toksvig's left Egyptian liberal novelist Ahdaf Soueif, then New Labour crony Dame Jude Kelly, then I think?? Baronness Red Helena Kennedy ??.
Right on the bottom is LP.
flypanam
Sausage to fortune
Andy you're close, but here is a sample of her poetry. Its called Saudade btw.
"There are more of us than you think, kicking off our high-
heeled shoes to run and being told not so fast
The best minds of my generation consumed by craving, furious
half naked starving--
Who ripped tights and dripping make up smoked alone in bed-
sits bare mattresses waiting for transfiguration.
Who ran half dressed out of department stores yelling that we
didn't want to be good and beautiful..."
"There are more of us than you think, kicking off our high-
heeled shoes to run and being told not so fast
The best minds of my generation consumed by craving, furious
half naked starving--
Who ripped tights and dripping make up smoked alone in bed-
sits bare mattresses waiting for transfiguration.
Who ran half dressed out of department stores yelling that we
didn't want to be good and beautiful..."
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
sihhi
Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered
Who ripped tights and dripping make-up smoked alone in bedsits bare mattresses waiting for transfiguration
Who ran half-dressed out of department stores yelling that we didn't want to be good and beautiful
Who glowing high and hopeful were the last to leave the gig our skin crackling with lust and sweat and pure music
Who wrote poetry on each other's arms and cared more about fucking than being fuckable
Who wants more?
Who ran half-dressed out of department stores yelling that we didn't want to be good and beautiful
Who glowing high and hopeful were the last to leave the gig our skin crackling with lust and sweat and pure music
Who wrote poetry on each other's arms and cared more about fucking than being fuckable
Who wants more?
J Ed
Follow Back Pro Expropriation
Needs more references to drinking 3 quid cups of tea in Starbucks
sihhi
Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered
Who worked until our backs stiffened and our limbs sang with the memory of misbehaviour that was what it was to be a woman
Who dared to dance until dawn and were drugged and raped by men in clean T-shirts and woke up scared and sore to be told it was our fault
Who swallowed bosses' patronizing side-eyes stole away from violent broken boys in the middle of the night and vowed never again to try to fix the world one man at a time
Who slammed down the tray of drinks and tore off our aprons and aching smiles and went scowling out into the streets looking for change
J Ed
Follow Back Pro Expropriation
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...attresses waiting for transfiguration&f=false
Oh god, she called it saudade. This really is too much.
Oh god, she called it saudade. This really is too much.
Bakunin
I am Noodle's bitch.
"Vogon poetry is of course the third worst in the Universe. The second worst is that of the Azgoths of Kria. During a recitation by their Poet Master Grunthos the Flatulent of his poem "Ode to a Small Lump of Green Putty I Found in My Armpit One Midsummer Morning" four of his audience members died of internal hemorrhaging, and the President of the Mid-Galactic Arts Nobbling Council, survived by gnawing one of his own legs off. Grunthos is reported to have been "disappointed" by the poem's reception, and was about to embark on a reading of his twelve-book epic entitled My Favorite Bathtime Gurgles when his own major intestine, in a desperate attempt to save life and civilization, leaped straight up through his neck and throttled his brain. The very worst poetry of all perished along with its creator, Laurie Penny of The Wiberal Media Bubble, Islington, England,[2] in the destruction of the planet Earth."
Better the destruction of the planet Earth than enduring any more of that, ta muchly.
sihhi
Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered
Other contributors include
Jane Czyzselska, editor of Diva; Joan Bakewell, managed to interview Blair about faith on Radio 3 in 2009 failing to ask about either Iraq or Afghanistan LOL!, Camila Batmanghelidjh anti-union 'carer for kids' endorsed by bank foundations and private schools, millionaire Highgate mansion-dweller Lib Dem MP Lynne Featherstone, author Linda Grant with a careful propaganda line for the IDF, Alissa Quart boss of pubishing company Atavist; Lib Dem Jeanette Winterson; liberal Turkish author (popular in the West because she studied/taught n the USA) Elif Shafak.
Jane Czyzselska, editor of Diva; Joan Bakewell, managed to interview Blair about faith on Radio 3 in 2009 failing to ask about either Iraq or Afghanistan LOL!, Camila Batmanghelidjh anti-union 'carer for kids' endorsed by bank foundations and private schools, millionaire Highgate mansion-dweller Lib Dem MP Lynne Featherstone, author Linda Grant with a careful propaganda line for the IDF, Alissa Quart boss of pubishing company Atavist; Lib Dem Jeanette Winterson; liberal Turkish author (popular in the West because she studied/taught n the USA) Elif Shafak.
TruXta
tired
sihhi
Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered
A fun joke: "However, was considering releasing my own perfume later in the year. 'Rancor' By Laurie Penny. Smells like teabags, tear gas + sweat."
Back to politics LP says the BBC trashes polyamory in this tweet
https://twitter.com/PennyRed/status/320166329535569921
Refering to this article http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-21753195
I don't see what the BBC has done wrong in that article, can anyone help out?
Back to politics LP says the BBC trashes polyamory in this tweet
https://twitter.com/PennyRed/status/320166329535569921
Refering to this article http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-21753195
I don't see what the BBC has done wrong in that article, can anyone help out?
DrRingDing
'anti-human wanker'
Yea, it's chatting shite.
J Ed
Follow Back Pro Expropriation
I think the BBC article is nasty, but it's interesting that Penny only chooses to comment on the way in which the welfare state is being beaten with this particular stick when she can get an angle in that mentions a particularly obscure identity politics subgroup.
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