Alex Callinicos/SWP vs Laurie Penny/New Statesman Facebook handbags

[DaveCinzano]

surely she should be penny dreadful and not penny red

Ahem! http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...facebook-handbags.266196/page-25#post-9852244

I'm still blindly hoping Red Penace will catch on

I'll also take the long odds on Lorra Pennies, lost cause that it is.

 

[BigTom]

It does not prevent people from having flashbacks. It makes them worse. It stops them living a normal life.

It can (imo often does), but there are times and places when avoidance is the right thing to happen - but only ever when that avoidance has been accompanied by a discussion and examination to make sure that you aren't hiding from something you shouldn't be. In some ways, having been both enabled and enabler wrt depression & bipolar respectively, this is a concern for anyone who is supporting someone with MH issues in a big way as well as the MH sufferer themselves.
It's not quite relevant here but the most important thing anyone said to me was "you don't get confident by not doing the things you aren't confident about".

e2a: This is more relevant to someone you are supporting personally, not people you don't know on the internet. I can't even begin to think round the issues of enabling when it's people you don't personally know.

What you've done there is you've made the mistake of thinking your point of view is relevant. You're not in the in-crowd, are you, who decide trigger warnings have to be put everywhere because "where's the harm in putting one" and "If even one person is prevented from having a flashback then that's good enough for me".

Jesus, I saw a trigger warning because of the word "idiot" the other day.

a trigger warning for "idiot", wtf? I guess this was somewhere on twitter was it? I don't get how any kind of context could justify that tbh, like I said above if the use of trigger warnings becomes ubiquitous they become useless - even the spread away from graphic description to any personal account clouds what they are telling you, going beyond that, well what's the point of them anymore.

 

[Firky]

Ahem! http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...facebook-handbags.266196/page-25#post-9852244

Not at all relate but...

Has anyone mentioned kyriachy yet, if not can I bags it to look clever?

Jo ‏@jonanamary
as their continuing presence on my flickr account adds more drops to te ocean of oppression/kyriarchy.

(Del' didn't use the word but that jonana mary)

They do like their words no one uses.

 

[Steel Icarus]

a trigger warning for "idiot", wtf? I guess this was somewhere on twitter was it? I don't get how any kind of context could justify that tbh, like I said above if the use of trigger warnings becomes ubiquitous they become useless - even the spread away from graphic description to any personal account clouds what they are telling you, going beyond that, well what's the point of them anymore.

Sorry, my mistake, the tweet is

(TW for ableism) Moore also blithely uses the word "moron", because that's totally ok too amirite??? (Hint: it's highly oppressive.)

 

[BigTom]

Sorry, my mistake, the tweet is

oh man, that is a prime example of the failure of understanding of trigger warnings.. I mean seriously, the trigger here is the word "moron" but it's in the tweet, there's not even any chance for someone to avoid it, let alone before we even start talking about how trigger warnings come from PTSD and anxiety order discussion forums (afaik) and should be limited to really severe things because otherwise like FW says we are just making people worse and enabling them to not live a normal life.

 

[Steel Icarus]

Yeah, I challenged her about its use for this quite minor thing...and got an explanation of what trigger warnings are.

 

[BigTom]

I'm mean not like obviously but I'm laughing tbh. Going to have a look at her explanation...

 

[frogwoman]

Lets have a trigger warning if you try to go out of your house.

 

[Blagsta]

It does not prevent people from having flashbacks. It makes them worse. It stops them living a normal life.

Yes, there's a lot to this. In mental health work, recovery is considered to largely be about acceptance of one's situation, normalisation of emotional states, exploration of distress and distressing events. Avoiding things tends to keep one stuck. Although of course you have to have enough resilience and emotional support to engage in this process.

 

[frogwoman]

Avoidance and reassurance seeking are massive obstacles to recovery (as far as that is possible, but even to management of the condition). thats what i was told a few years ago anyway.

 

[sihhi]

What you've done there is you've made the mistake of thinking your point of view is relevant. You're not in the in-crowd, are you, who decide trigger warnings have to be put everywhere because "where's the harm in putting one" and "If even one person is prevented from having a flashback then that's good enough for me".

Jesus, I saw a trigger warning because of the word "idiot" the other day.

Don't have much to say about this, except you've hit the nail on the head:- the person(s)/situation(s) that caused the initial trauma are responsible for the 'flashbacks'.
It's not the responsibility of people discussing a different matter to stop unknown others (who?) having flashbacks.

On the recent non-furore.

LP becomes a good example at dealing with being 'called out'.

Who the hell are 'Tips for Radicals'? Why should radicals take examples from journalists who lie about them and interview far-right leaders?

I had a look and found out that privilege can mean whatever you want it to mean:

http://tipsforradicals.tumblr.com/post/41711399884/you-need-the-theory-the-class-struggle-must-be

'You need the theory: the class struggle must be intersectional'

"Obviously it’s a false dichotomy: any decent analysis involving privilege puts intersectionality (i.e. that the way in which different privileges overlap creates a complex and multi-layered structure of social advantages and disadvantages) at its centre. Privilege isn’t inherently binarist - privileged vs oppressed - any more than Marxist economic analysis is (employer vs employee). Without an intersectional analysis, you will end up only focusing only on those with the loudest voice, and ignoring the “most oppressed” by the capitalist system we live in."


Privilege isn't "binarist", so I can be both privileged on one axis and non-privileged. I mean what the hell.
Also, my view, 'in the movement' and 'in the capitalist media':- middle-class immigrants have the loudest voice, working-class immigrants have close to none.

 

[frogwoman]

although the whole idea of "curing" it is also problematic coz it ends up with you beating yourselfover the head over the fact that you can't "cure it" and becoming a whole depressive spiral where you feel worse and worse over the fact that you are still ill.

 

[BigTom]

Avoidance and reassurance seeking are massive obstacles to recovery (as far as that is possible, but even to management of the condition). thats what i was told a few years ago anyway.

I'd agree with that (from the perspective of depression). Agorophobia (that's the right word isn't it? when you can't go outside) is the ultimate end point of avoidance (though I'm not suggesting it's only place it comes from). Self-pity is a fucking killer and has to be challenged, and avoidance and reassurance do not do this, they do the opposite, say that the self-pity is fine, that avoidance is fine. So where do you draw the line, best not leave the house because something might trigger me, there might be something I can't cope with.
But there's a judgement call to be made, I struggle really badly in unstructured social situations, especially parties. There's been times when I've pushed myself to go out rather than avoid the situation and it's been the wrong decision. There's also been times I've been out where I've wanted to stay home and it's been right to go out.
Being able to make that call requires recognition that avoidance can be wrong and harmful even if it seems right and feels nice. Trigger warnings in the way they seem to be getting used now just don't have that recognition.

 

[frogwoman]

I'd agree with that (from the perspective of depression). Agorophobia (that's the right word isn't it? when you can't go outside) is the ultimate end point of avoidance (though I'm not suggesting it's only place it comes from). Self-pity is a fucking killer and has to be challenged, and avoidance and reassurance do not do this, they do the opposite, say that the self-pity is fine, that avoidance is fine. So where do you draw the line, best not leave the house because something might trigger me, there might be something I can't cope with.
But there's a judgement call to be made, I struggle really badly in unstructured social situations, especially parties. There's been times when I've pushed myself to go out rather than avoid the situation and it's been the wrong decision. There's also been times I've been out where I've wanted to stay home and it's been right to go out.
Being able to make that call requires recognition that avoidance can be wrong and harmful even if it seems right and feels nice. Trigger warnings in the way they seem to be getting used now just don't have that recognition.

yeah, me too. Its a judgement call and sometimes with parties etc it is right not to go out. you cant always assume that it will be though.

 

[Blagsta]

Avoidance and reassurance seeking are massive obstacles to recovery (as far as that is possible, but even to management of the condition). thats what i was told a few years ago anyway.

I'm using a rehabilitation definition of recovery rather than a medical one. Its much more about acceptance and management than cure and elimination of symptoms.

 

[BigTom]

although the whole idea of "curing" it is also problematic coz it ends up with you beating yourselfover the head over the fact that you can't "cure it" and becoming a whole depressive spiral where you feel worse and worse over the fact that you are still ill.

fuck cures. I don't even think about cures for my depression anymore. coping strategies are what exist, and these can be so effective they come close to a cure, but it's always there, like suicide, I think about suicide pretty much every day, I'm not going to kill myself, I have coping strategies that mean that won't happen, but I can't stop the thoughts.

 

[frogwoman]

I'm using a rehabilitation definition of recovery rather than a medical one. Its much more about acceptance and management than cure and elimination of symptoms.

Good.

 

[frogwoman]

fuck cures. I don't even think about cures for my depression anymore. coping strategies are what exist, and these can be so effective they come close to a cure, but it's always there, like suicide, I think about suicide pretty much every day, I'm not going to kill myself, I have coping strategies that mean that won't happen, but I can't stop the thoughts.

yeah thinking about the fact that i might never be cured really fucked me in the first few years after being diagnosed with this. It's bullshit, as Blagsta says it should be about acceptance and management.

 

[JimW]

IAgorophobia (that's the right word isn't it? when you can't go outside)...

No, that's a fear of getting into arguments with Greek people

 

[Blagsta]

Good.

That's pretty much the angle mental health nursing is coming from these days.

 

[butchersapron]

No, that's a fear of getting into arguments with Greek people

Outside

 

[Steel Icarus]

 

[sihhi]

Who on earth just "chats" with MPs? (a wag would say something about MPs who send their kids to private school)

 

[fractionMan]

*barf*

 

[butchersapron]

*barf*

How about this for afters:

Take, for example, David Lammy, MP for Tottenham, who I’ve mentioned on this blog before. He’s one of the first truly interesting politicians I’ve met, and in the space of half an hour the man made me want to smack him in the face and managed to raise all the little hairs on the back of my neck with a sudden lust for social change. Gleeful and slightly manic in the way that only a real politics junkie can be, Lammy is an expansive orator with a soundbite for every occasion (‘a strong economy is not enough – we need a good society!’ is one that I’ve now counted in five different speeches). He’s the young gun from outside the nepotistic cesspool of Westminster who finds himself ‘wheeled in’, in his own words, ‘to talk to angry young black men or angry young white men’ or, indeed, to any audience requiring a politician young people can relate to. He’s frighteningly clever, annoyingly inspiring, and the patronising git knows it, too. I hate him, I hate his terrible smug face, I hated him from the moment he opened his mouth, and I would vote for him in any election you care to mention, because he’s an uniquely talented politican who cares about the poor and the disenfranchised and the young and the desperate almost as much as he cares about stroking his own ego, and that’s a hell of a lot.

Following line is great too:

The Fabian Society. What an odd place for me to be doing a work placement. The Fabians are stuffy and weird and broiling with reformist energy, and if you took away their kettle and their chocolate biscuits the whole hundred-year-old organisation would implode in twenty-four hours. I have a massive amount of respect for them, because they are for things as well as against things, even if most of what they are for is getting important people into a room together to talk about welfare reform, child poverty and human rights, feeding them enough coffee to keep them sharp and then listening very, very carefully to what is said. I’m here to learn, because I believe in quiet socialist revolution, in radical systemic change. I’m here to learn, because I’m happy to stomp around and shout with my big fuckoff socialist-feminist boots on until I’m hoarse and aching, but I won’t stomp through blood in the streets. No thanks. What the hell can we do but try to change people’s minds?

 

[not-bono-ever]

oxbridge chums innit

Who on earth just "chats" with MPs? (a wag would say something about MPs who send their kids to private school)

both oxbridge innit

Whats the point of discourse with the grimy masses, when you can make a living chatting with the connected and well educated.

 

[sihhi]

The sorriness battle rages on: 'Hugely sorry'

 

[Random]

both oxbridge innit

Whats the point of discourse with the grimy masses, when you can make a living chatting with the connected and well educated.

It's rather that she knows that Abbot represents media access and career progression. But fucking hell. A true radical would burn their boats with someone like Abbot. A true politician would stay carefully cordial. But who writes "love x", for FUCK's SAKE?

 

[weepiper]

How about this for afters:



Following line is great too:

Hold on just a sec, I need to wipe the spew off the walls so I can go again.

 

[sihhi]

It's rather that she knows that Abbot represents media access and career progression. But fucking hell. A true radical would burn their boats with someone like Abbot. A true politician would stay carefully cordial. But who writes "love x", for FUCK's SAKE?

It's worth pointing out that Diane Abbott has long been seen as dead to what's left of the serious black anti-racist movement that hasn't become a charity or a business.
It's the bloody intersectional midde-classers who are trying to revive her.