Alex Callinicos/SWP vs Laurie Penny/New Statesman Facebook handbags

[Balbi]

tbh there was and is a very vocal trans lobby.

Oh yeah, there is - but starting with inflammatory language about a small group who take enough shit as it is, and then hitting lots of nasty language that has been used against them, well - it's just dumbfounding.

 

[Balbi]

Never thought i'd say this but our Laurie's gone after Bindel and done a good job of it too.

@bindelj: @PennyRed @bindelj Not promoting, saying what is true, that it was a long time coming as a response after the hatred doled out by some trans

"Saying what is true" - that's a Littlejohn tactic right there.

 

[Firky]

All Laurie is doing is jumping on the bandwagon that will benefit her the most, there is no benevolence in that woman. She's entirely self promoting, exploitative, and you have been duped.

 

[butchersapron]

Never thought i'd say this but our Laurie's gone after Bindel and done a good job of it too.

@bindelj: @PennyRed @bindelj Not promoting, saying what is true, that it was a long time coming as a response after the hatred doled out by some trans

"Saying what is true" - that's a Littlejohn tactic right there.

Bindel accused LP in 2011 of falsely claiming that she had interviewed her for her book. All may not be as it seems.

 

[Balbi]

All Laurie is doing is jumping on the bandwagon that will benefit her the most, there is no benevolence in that woman. She's entirely self promoting, exploitative, and you have been duped.

LP could get that comment from bindel, us non-media platform types couldn't. Useful idiot innit.

 

[Firky]

Do you ever forget anything Butchers?

 

[Balbi]

I am increasingly convinced butchersapron is like Mycroft, the HOLMES 4 in The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress, the product of a terminally bored supercomputer.

 

[Buckaroo]

Some stuff about Bindel-Pennygate here

http://madamjmo.blogspot.ie/2011/07/laurie-penny-looking-familiar.html

 

[Ronnie Rubashov]

Ads are specific to the person viewing the page, so in actual fact those adverts say more about you than the people leaving comments.

When I go to that page I get adverts for donkey jackets, hobnailed boots, tripe, Wonga loans and union lines:

Is that right? So how did they know I'd been thinking about an Amex gold card? Is it because I read all the interctional stuff and so they figure I'm from Islington?

 

[rekil]

Never thought i'd say this but our Laurie's gone after Bindel and done a good job of it too.

@bindelj: @PennyRed @bindelj Not promoting, saying what is true, that it was a long time coming as a response after the hatred doled out by some trans

"Saying what is true" - that's a Littlejohn tactic right there.

What butchers said, also, Laurie stalked Bindel for a bit a while back - proper creepy stalking - turning up at a stonewall do to shout at her and everything.

 

[Greebo]

Is that right? So how did they know I'd been thinking about an Amex gold card? Is it because I read all the interctional stuff and so they figure I'm from Islington?

Can't be; I got Directline, Eurostar, and American Express. Very wide of the mark.

 

[Favelado]

I read LP's blogpost and thought it a put forward a robust case and was a much better piece of writing than other work of hers I've read.

edit - I've just seen the posts about Bindel's claims. If that's true it's another article ruined.

 

[Firky]

Is that right? So how did they know I'd been thinking about an Amex gold card? Is it because I read all the interctional stuff and so they figure I'm from Islington?

Cookies.

I went on Amazon the otehr week and it was recommending me Laurie Penny's book and historic books on Oxford uni. I should have taken a screen pic because it tickled me.

 

[Ronnie Rubashov]

Cookies.

I went on Amazon the otehr week and it was recommending me Laurie Penny's book and historic books on Oxford uni. I should have taken a screen pic because it tickled me.

Yeah...fair enough...but I look at CIF maybe 3 times a month. In fact the last couple of times I looked it was following links from here to LP articles. Does that mean there's an algorithm somewhere which matches Laurie Penny to American Express? Does she know?

 

[Firky]

I don't think LP would have a credit card - she's loaded and does not need to buy things on credit.

Plus she is um, like against erm.. that stuff, like banks and money, and erm... shit yeah, quick... roll a fag.

 

[equationgirl]

I don't think LP would have a credit card - she's loaded and does not need to buy things on credit.

Plus she is um, like against erm.. that stuff, like banks and money, and erm... shit yeah, quick... roll a fag.

I bet she gets paid in Bitcoin....

 

[SpineyNorman]

If there was any justice she'd be paid in fucking buttons.

 

[Buckaroo]

She should be paid by cheque then she could check her cheques etc...i'll get my coat.

 

[el-ahrairah]

Oh yeah, there is - but starting with inflammatory language about a small group who take enough shit as it is, and then hitting lots of nasty language that has been used against them, well - it's just dumbfounding.

it is. it's quite a debate in radfem politics that goes back years and years and years. i can appreciate both sides of it tbh. i think everyone should stop trying to score points against other oppressed groups and stop trying to take over each others debates.

 

[cesare]

If there was any justice she'd be paid in fucking buttons.

 

[DotCommunist]

 

[ViolentPanda]

If there was any justice she'd be paid in fucking buttons.

Don't know what the button would have to say about that!

 

[Ronnie Rubashov]

it is. it's quite a debate in radfem politics that goes back years and years and years. i can appreciate both sides of it tbh. i think everyone should stop trying to score points against other oppressed groups and stop trying to take over each others debates.

Exactly...isn't that identity politics in a nutshell: only members of a particular group should speak on the issues affecting that group.

Which kinda raises an awkward problem or two for many of those who actively support identity/ intersectionality etc. Say for instance you'd been born into an affluent middle-class background, attended a public school, then Oxbridge; just what would be the natural constituency about which you were entitled to speak?

 

[Balbi]

Exactly...isn't that identity politics in a nutshell: only members of a particular group should speak on the issues affecting that group.

Which kinda raises an awkward problem or two for many of those who actively support identity/ intersectionality etc. Say for instance you'd been born into an affluent middle-class background, attended a public school, then Oxbridge; just what would be the natural constituency about which you were entitled to speak?

*clutches head*

Intersectionality isn't about that though, it's basically observing and charting relationships between different forms of oppression etc experienced simultaneously by individuals and attempting to resolve the inequality through either reducing the power of the labels of identity and discrete support lingustics provides differing oppressions. Or it's about categorising everything and creating a detailed understanding of how individual forms of oppression in racism/sexism/etc are expressed in society, and then working to reduce and remove them. Or it's a mix of the two.

It's not a game where whoever's the most oppressed wins. It's an academic theory focusing on developing an understanding of the internal dynamics of individuals with differing background within a collective, and making allowances that your experience will be different from other who are not like you and being willing to listen, learn and be informed of when you have often inadvertantly said something which might offend someone, and to be able yo do the same to others.

It's, using phallocentric terms, "DON'T BE A DICK TO PEOPLE WHO ARE DIFFERENT TO YOU, RECOGNISE THEIR EXPERIENCES ARE VALID". Not top trumps. And the fact it comes down to that is typical of this idea that academic theories, whose precis gives people a nice fluffy inclusivity idea and promotes defining identities (in the categorically complex model), which hasn't been rigorously applied in academia, gets co-opted without doing the next bit, which is reading the contextual stuff.

*rips out hair*

This whole stupid argument's based around an entitled second wave feminist refusing to accept she'd offended someone, and then her friends supporting her in acting in a way which, if I had behaved like that to them, would have had me tarred and feathered and called all sorts. Because it's easier to write 'brazilian transexual' than 'pnuematic hypersexed feminine form', because it's easier to take the name of an academic theory and either claim it, or dismiss it, without actually recognising whether or not it can be applied appropriately, because people appear to believe that there's no middle ground between a Grazia column and Derrida.

*howls at the moon*

Its about inclusive debate, shared experience and sharing experience. The 'well you're x so you can't talk about y' thing is the antithesis of it. It should be, 'if you're x and you talk about y, be prepared for y to set you right on the things you don't know about, and don't get in a strop about it'. Yes there'll be anger, reacting to percieved intentional baiting is - but if you want to do intersectionality and talk outside of uour experiences, you've got to accept you'll get it wrong AND you'll get called on it. And then have a constructive dialogue about it.

*runs into the woods*

 

[cesare]

The commentariat tend toward the Grazia column binary though. Meeja innit.

 

[Balbi]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jan/13/julie-birchill-bullying-trans-community

This.

 

[cesare]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jan/13/julie-birchill-bullying-trans-community

This.

That's very good.

 

[Balbi]

Bit hyperbolic in places, but certainly much more cool headed consideration than Burchill.

 

[cesare]

Bit hyperbolic in places, but certainly much more cool headed consideration than Burchill.

Yeah well, there's always going to be some hyperbole deployed to make a point. It happens on this thread too. But the piece wasn't dripping with it considering the provocation.

 

[Ronnie Rubashov]

*clutches head*

Intersectionality isn't about that though, it's basically observing and charting relationships between different forms of oppression etc experienced simultaneously by individuals and attempting to resolve the inequality through either reducing the power of the labels of identity and discrete support lingustics provides differing oppressions. Or it's about categorising everything and creating a detailed understanding of how individual forms of oppression in racism/sexism/etc are expressed in society, and then working to reduce and remove them. Or it's a mix of the two.

It's not a game where whoever's the most oppressed wins. It's an academic theory focusing on developing an understanding of the internal dynamics of individuals with differing background within a collective, and making allowances that your experience will be different from other who are not like you and being willing to listen, learn and be informed of when you have often inadvertantly said something which might offend someone, and to be able yo do the same to others.

It's, using phallocentric terms, "DON'T BE A DICK TO PEOPLE WHO ARE DIFFERENT TO YOU, RECOGNISE THEIR EXPERIENCES ARE VALID". Not top trumps. And the fact it comes down to that is typical of this idea that academic theories, whose precis gives people a nice fluffy inclusivity idea and promotes defining identities (in the categorically complex model), which hasn't been rigorously applied in academia, gets co-opted without doing the next bit, which is reading the contextual stuff.

*rips out hair*

This whole stupid argument's based around an entitled second wave feminist refusing to accept she'd offended someone, and then her friends supporting her in acting in a way which, if I had behaved like that to them, would have had me tarred and feathered and called all sorts. Because it's easier to write 'brazilian transexual' than 'pnuematic hypersexed feminine form', because it's easier to take the name of an academic theory and either claim it, or dismiss it, without actually recognising whether or not it can be applied appropriately, because people appear to believe that there's no middle ground between a Grazia column and Derrida.

*howls at the moon*

Its about inclusive debate, shared experience and sharing experience. The 'well you're x so you can't talk about y' thing is the antithesis of it. It should be, 'if you're x and you talk about y, be prepared for y to set you right on the things you don't know about, and don't get in a strop about it'. Yes there'll be anger, reacting to percieved intentional baiting is - but if you want to do intersectionality and talk outside of uour experiences, you've got to accept you'll get it wrong AND you'll get called on it. And then have a constructive dialogue about it.

*runs into the woods*

Isn't that what I said though?