Alex Callinicos/SWP vs Laurie Penny/New Statesman Facebook handbags

[Firky]

What does sexism smell like? Only if it's a bit like stale trumps there's a whiff of it in my unmade bed linen too.

Smells like the north when coal was still burnt.

 

[equationgirl]

What does sexism smell like? Only if it's a bit like stale trumps there's a whiff of it in my unmade bed linen too.

Like a mixture of BO and testosterone, going by some of the meetings I've been in.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Spineynorman of "twitter feed full of hate" infamy, you are too late.

Not my fault, I was busy examining my privilege

 

[SpineyNorman]

Smells like the north when coal was still burnt.

I quite like that tbh. Does that make me a sexist?

 

[Favelado]

Smells like the north when coal was still burnt.

They don't still burn coal in your town? Fake Northerner.

 

[Ronnie Rubashov]

In a general sense, shouldn't adherents of identity politics tend to be more accommodating to a diversity of opinion; accepting contrary opinion as inevitable? It's certainly paradoxical but those of a more universalist bent, or at least those who look for commonality before affirming difference, seem to be far more objective and comfortable with plurality...or at least less inclined to run off shouting insults.

All she was doing was engaging in a shared rehearsal of the standard arguments against quotas...piss taking or an actual enquiry into the amorphous twilight of her economic position seem to freak her out...none of it reached what you might call debate or even argument. Fuck knows what would have happened in that case.

Fair play to her though.

 

[Frances Lengel]

Yeah well I didn't pass comments on her unmade bed linen, (theres a whiff of sexism in that sentence)

I did & I make no apologies for it - Thing is, it could be a nice little room, that. Paint the walls a lilac-y/purple type colour, later that carpet off and get a blue corduroy effort, give the skirtings a lick of paint - Just do 'em white, it will make a difference, fuck the curtain off as well and just hang a piece of green net type material on a bit of curtain wire - I know purple /lilac are on the red spectrum and red & green should ne'er be seen, but I reckon that'd work. How much'd that cost? Less than a oner anyway. It might involve going skint for a fortnight, but a fortnight skint's a price worth paying for a nice room that you can be proud of.

Sack that shiny green quilt cover off as well, it's shininess makes it look cheap.

And now go back to an intelligent and informed political discussion. From which I am, by definition, excluded.

 

[JimW]

Like a mixture of BO and testosterone, going by some of the meetings I've been in.

I thought I told you to keep my recipe for that new 'left chic' aftershave (hopefully salad dressing at Firebox too) a secret

 

[Frances Lengel]

Like a mixture of BO and testosterone, going by some of the meetings I've been in.

You forgot brylcreem, dandruff, unwashed wool trousers and the suggestion of stale dried cum.

 

[equationgirl]

You forgot brylcreem, dandruff, unwashed wool trousers and the suggestion of stale dried cum.

I thought I told you to keep my recipe for that new 'left chic' aftershave (hopefully salad dressing at Firebox too) a secret

There goes the PD's product line too.

No reason why we still can't flog it to Firebox at an extortionate mark-up

 

[equationgirl]

Is lack of privilege actually a privilege?

 

[SpineyNorman]

^^^This. It's only the last year that I've felt confident enough to start participating more actively in the politics forum threads. It is intimidating, but there's lots of interesting stuff to learn.

The thing about urban is that it allows anyone to join in the debate.

You should have started posting ages ago then - judging by your contribution on this thread and the workers girder (lol) thread you've got plenty to offer the debate.

(That might come across as patronizing but I promise that's not how it's intended - it's not in my nature to flatter)

 

[rekil]

I thought I told you to keep my recipe for that new 'left chic' aftershave (hopefully salad dressing at Firebox too) a secret

PD has a gender neutral fragrance line (and advert treatment) already, courtesy of Rory MacKinnon - Savagely Communism.

 

[past caring]

You should have started posting ages ago then - judging by your contribution on this thread and the workers girder (lol) thread you've got plenty to offer the debate.

(That might come across as patronizing but I promise that's not how it's intended - it's not in my nature to flatter)

 

[SpineyNorman]

How the fuck did you get hold of my wedding snaps?

Who is that by the way?

 

[past caring]

Someone help him, eh?

Fucking whippersnappers.

 

[snadge]

Dame Edna.

 

[Buckaroo]

Les Patterson. Sir Les Patterson (Barry Humphries AKA Dame Edna)

 

[butchersapron]

Aus cultural ambassador, one of the few people left telling it like it was.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Dame Edna.

Ah, I remember Dame Edna - just didn't recognize her dressed as a fella

That's not trans-phobic is it?

 

[Buckaroo]

Ah, I remember Dame Edna - just didn't recognize her dressed as a fella

That's not trans-phobic is it?

If you're saying it then yes it is is!

 

[equationgirl]

You should have started posting ages ago then - judging by your contribution on this thread and the workers girder (lol) thread you've got plenty to offer the debate.

(That might come across as patronizing but I promise that's not how it's intended - it's not in my nature to flatter)

Why thank you, that means a lot to me, and no, it's not patronising

I've really learned a lot from this thread and others in this forum, and that's down to all the posters on here. Thank you - here's to more learning in 2013.

Forward comrades!

 

[Bakunin]

So you mean- quota systems are a problem because people who don't benefit don't like them?

No, they're a problem because they encourage tokenism, people ending up in a job they may not be fit for because they tick a box on a piece of paper instead of having the ability to do the job in question. Which, not surprisingly, leads to an understandable resentment on the part of those who actually ARE good at a job and don't get it precisely because they DON'T tick some box on a piece of paper somewhere. They also enable employers to have a token insert-demographic-here and then state they have and actively follow the idea of equal opportunities while in reality doing nothing of the kind.

Can't really break it down any simpler than that.

 

[DotCommunist]

once more salient points are ignored in favour of laurrie giving it the biggun about how we are creepy trolls. This shit gets old. Sponsor my trip to palestine or be forever condemned as a lumpen chauvinist. These cunts do my nut in.

 

[ymu]

No, they're a problem because they encourage tokenism, people ending up in a job they may not be fit for because they tick a box on a piece of paper instead of having the ability to do the job in question. Which, not surprisingly, leads to an understandable resentment on the part of those who actually ARE good at a job and don't get it precisely because they DON'T tick some box on a piece of paper somewhere. They also enable employers to have a token insert-demographic-here and then state they have and actively follow the idea of equal opportunities while in reality doing nothing of the kind.

Can't really break it down any simpler than that.

The counter to that is that if certain groups are under-represented in a workplace then they cannot be hiring the best people for the job (all else being equal, which it often isn't). This is why women who don't have babies (and some who do) often get promoted faster than men in male-dominated workplaces, if the discrimination only applies at the hiring stage but performance is what is judged after that (big if). They had to be better than the men (on average) to get the job in the first place.

As I understand it this is the thinking behind positive discrimination as used in the US. No quotas, but if two or more equally suitable candidates are found then the deciding factor is minority status. Easily abused in both directions, of course, but not an unreasonable approach IMO.

That's not to say that quota systems are appropriate, especially not as a quick fix. The problem isn't always at the hiring stage, it's during education and training. If a particular type of work has never been seen as a possibility by the under-represented groups, there won't be enough of them training to do it for a quota system to make any sense and it certainly will lead to rightfully aggrieved people being denied jobs that they were better suited for.

The more important work is done in schools. Like abolishing domestic science and encouraging girls to do 'boys subjects' like maths and physics. That, eventually, provides a more equally sized pool of qualified candidates for training/university, and then a more equally sized pool of candidates for jobs.

Even with these sorts of measures, quota systems make little sense. In the absence of equal responsibility for childcare, women will often choose jobs that will allow motherhood more easily. Gynaecology is the most male-dominated specialty in medicine, and it's not all for creepy reasons (although some of it is). The main reason is that the shift patterns are bloody awful and incompatible with parenthood, unless you have a partner taking responsibility for the kids. Male domination of the oil-rigs is presumably down to the same reasons - when all else is not equal, these jobs are not attractive to women.

Of course, the women with the loudest voices have fewer problems with childcare and higher financial expectations. Their primary concern is having equal access to jobs and status, so issues like childcare get neglected and we end up with the madness we have now. Double-income families having no more disposable income than a single wage provided in the 1970s, and single income families drowning because housing and other costs have been pushed through the roof by the double-income middle-classes.

 

[cesare]

In the UK we already have provision for positive action in a tie-break situation (a tie-break between two equally qualified candidates) to allow justification for recruitment and/or promotion in giving preference to the person with a protected characteristic. The Equality Act also provides for one type of action not being discrimination for the purposes of the Act; that of allowing disabled people to be treated more favourably than others.

Pre the Equality Act, there was already provision for a limited amount of positive action allowing greater access to facilities for access to training for particular work (this applied to sex and race).

Not quota systems though.

 

[cesare]

Of course, even the limited amount of flexibility there was for positive action was open to mis-use back in the day. This happened much more in the public sector than private or third sectors; but I imagine some of us can remember local government (for example) using "we are currently under-represented in the following areas" to recruit in such a way that there was a perception of quota filling going on even though they usually stopped short of positive action becoming positive discrimination.

These practices and the resulting perception fed nicely into the negative aspects of multiculturalism, and provided grist for the mill in terms of backlash.

 

[cesare]

The more important work is done in schools. Like abolishing domestic science and encouraging girls to do 'boys subjects' like maths and physics. That, eventually, provides a more equally sized pool of qualified candidates for training/university, and then a more equally sized pool of candidates for training/university, and then a more equally sized pool of candidates for jobs.

Personally I don't agree that domestic science should be abolished in schools. Children need to be equipped with skills for all aspects of their adult lives not just paid work. Also, abolishing domestic science feeds into the devaluing of domestic work. What I do think, though, is that all aspects of domestic science should be taught to all children. Food and nutrition, laundry and cleaning, household money management, DIY and repairs, first aid, child and pet care, gardening etc, (and I haven't listed these most obvious examples in any particular order of importance).

 

[ymu]

Yes, I agree. But when it existed, it was for girls whilst boys were sent off to do woodwork or DT.

 

[cesare]

Yes, I agree. But when it existed, it was for girls whilst boys were sent off to do woodwork or DT.

I think that may have depended upon the school, and the time. In the mixed comp that I went to in the early 70s domestic science (or home economics as it was called then) was taught to boys and girls alike in mixed classes. That covered cooking and laundry/cleaning. The split happened with dressmaking v metal/wood work although to be fair boys weren't prevented from doing dressmaking and girls weren't prevented from doing metal/woodwork. There were just fewer boys/girls in the "opposite" classes, much fewer.

ETA: and in the single sex grammar I went to for the second half of my secondary schooling, there were no domestic science classes at all of any description, and even art was considered at bit frivolous