Alex Callinicos/SWP vs Laurie Penny/New Statesman Facebook handbags

[cesare]

Quota systems really aren't the problem. Structural inequality is the problem.

They're part of the problem. They're like using sticking plaster on a broken arm, and then finding out that there's also an allergy to elastoplast.

 

[Ronnie Rubashov]

Well exactly- claiming that more women in the boardrooms will somehow solve gender equality conveniently brushes over the fact that the boardrooms are still the problem. It's feminism as a decoy for rampant neoliberalism, and I hate it. I honestly couldn't care less about women in the boardrooms. When are people going to start asking en masse whether a female cleaner, as opposed to a female banker, can 'have it all'?

Have all of what? I really hate to break this to you but 'having it all' is not all it's made out to be...and I should know; I'm a white guy. I think what's needed is some kinda bottom-up anarcho-syndicalist spontaneous sit in..or on..or down, till the world comes to its senses and we all get an Audi and our kids go to private schools.
Obviously, I lack your book-learning and economic literacy, but that's the way I see it.
So how d'ya like them apples missie?

 

[equationgirl]

Is it though? Erased from modern feminism, I mean.

 

[lauriepenny]

So you mean- quota systems are a problem because people who don't benefit don't like them?

 

[butchersapron]

Um, I've written loads of articles and a book and given umpteen talks about precisely this topic, the erasure of class consciousness in modern feminism.

No you haven't. You've written lots whilst doing it. Whilst being that erasure.

 

[equationgirl]

They're part of the problem. They're like using sticking plaster on a broken arm, and then finding out that there's also an allergy to elastoplast.

I'm always amazed that time and time again, quotas are suggested as a way of overcoming the problem, like they're something new.

 

[cesare]

So you mean- quota systems are a problem because people who don't benefit don't like them?

Nobody benefits from tokenistic gestures.

 

[lauriepenny]

, but that's the way I see it.
So how d'ya like them apples missie?

Are you literally a comedy chauvinist from a 1950s American musical?

 

[butchersapron]

So you mean- quota systems are a problem because people who don't benefit don't like them?

What do you mean by quoata system first off then?

 

[cesare]

I'm always amazed that time and time again, quotas are suggested as a way of overcoming the problem, like they're something new.

Aye.

 

[equationgirl]

So you mean- quota systems are a problem because people who don't benefit don't like them?

No, quota systems are a problem because they don't encourage equality, they encourage tokenism.

If I'm get put on the company board to satisfy a quota, people aren't going to take me seriously.

 

[equationgirl]

I want to be recognised for the skills that I have and the good job I do. Not my gender so the CEO can tick a box and say he's got a woman on the board.

 

[Ronnie Rubashov]

Are you literally a comedy chauvinist from a 1950s American musical?

Yes...literally

Do you know what literally means, btw?

 

[Firky]

"only the politics of white working class men is actually relevant"

I know you make stuff up - but why that in particular? Does this somehow go back your IWCA cock up?

What I am really asking is how could you come to that conclusion if you've read this thread or even outside of it on this forum?

 

[lauriepenny]

No, quota systems are a problem because they don't encourage equality, they encourage tokenism.

If I'm get put on the company board to satisfy a quota, people aren't going to take me seriously.

I get that worry, which is why quota systems of (eg) 30 percent women in a workplace are insulting. But how do you know the men in any workplace got their jobs on merit, rather than inbuilt bias in their favour?

 

[DotCommunist]

Oh god, so there's to be no comment on peoples- and I mean peoples, not just people you'd like to think oppose the idea of privilege theory- just someone posted a pic of your quotidian room hur hur we must all be shitty trolls and opressed white males etc.

theres quite a bit here since you swanned off to do work, like none of us do OBVIOUSLY, regarding the role of unions and gender politics within unions. Meat and issues.

You'll not bother with that though I suppose. Far easier to dismiss it completely os someone reposted a pic you'd already posted on the internets and then off for Bengali Chai at Firebox ffs

 

[equationgirl]

God this stuff makes me cross

 

[butchersapron]

I get that worry, which is why quota systems of (eg) 30 percent women in a workplace are insulting. But how do you know the men in any workplace got their jobs on merit, rather than inbuilt bias in their favour?

I bet you get lots of worries but still support top-down state lead pro-capital responses.

 

[poului]

No, quota systems are a problem because they don't encourage equality, they encourage tokenism.

I'd go even further than that actually, the presence of quotas in so many professions are held up as a sign of progress when they're far from it. They're a depressing insistence that there's some issues surrounding perceptions of ethnic and gender groups that still need to be addressed. They wouldn't be necessary otherwise.

 

[lauriepenny]

I bet you get lots of worries but still support top-down state lead pro-capital responses.

Um, in a word, no.

 

[rekil]

You seem really, really anxious to convince yourselves that only the politics of white working class men is actually relevant to economic and social struggle.

Let's see some evidence of this. One single post. Just one.

.

 

[butchersapron]

Um, in a word, no.

So how do you want to do this then?

 

[Ronnie Rubashov]

Um, in a word, no.

Any elaboration coming along?

 

[equationgirl]

I get that worry, which is why quota systems of (eg) 30 percent women in a workplace are insulting. But how do you know the men in any workplace got their jobs on merit, rather than inbuilt bias in their favour?

That's tricky. I work in a technical environment, so more men than women are inevitable anyway. But that's mostly down to gender role conditioning at an early age. I was always told I could do anything I wanted, but I know women who have been conditioned to think that their only options are admin jobs or being a wife/mother. If more girls are encouraged to explore maths/sciences from primary school level, they'll be more women in technical roles.

The split of women to men is very discipline-specific, even in the engineering profession. Mechanical engineering rarely has more than 15-20% women at degree level, whereas chemical/civil engineering is almost 50:50. Maths is even 50:50 at postgrad level in some unis, which is great.

 

[inva]

Anyway, your dismissal of 'identity' politics is getting desperate. You seem really, really anxious to convince yourselves that only the politics of white working class men is actually relevant to economic and social struggle. Those of us who are and who fight for women, people of colour and minorities don't call it 'identity politics', by the way. We just call it 'politics.'

who do you fight for laurie penny?

 

[butchersapron]

You seem really, really anxious to convince yourselves that only the politics of white working class men is actually relevant to economic and social struggle.

The politics of hate.

 

[snadge]

The analysis of pictures of my bedroom is really creepy, guys. I'm really sorry for having a window and a bed, though. Am I not allowed to write about class politics if I have a window and a bed? Should I knock out the window and sleep on the floor?

Don't put stuff into the Public Domain as someone with such a large following if you don't want it commented on.

Anyway, your dismissal of 'identity' politics is getting desperate. You seem really, really anxious to convince yourselves that only the politics of white working class men is actually relevant to economic and social struggle. Those of us who are and who fight for women, people of colour and minorities don't call it 'identity politics', by the way. We just call it 'politics.'

And we call it opportunities for all, jobs for all, you just divide and snipe.

 

[Athos]

Anyway, your dismissal of 'identity' politics is getting desperate. You seem really, really anxious to convince yourselves that only the politics of white working class men is actually relevant to economic and social struggle. Those of us who are and who fight for women, people of colour and minorities don't call it 'identity politics', by the way. We just call it 'politics.'

This is just downright dishonest. I doubt that you could point to single post in which that sentiment is expressed or even implied, by anyone, let alone the majority of contributors to this thread. Could you?

I'd hoped that you might have learned a lesson from slandering Spiney, yet here you are again implying the same thing, albeit you've not actually accused anyone by name. Cowardly, and downright dishonest.

And it demonstrates that you've not bothered to read the many pages of serious discussions e.g. the recent discussion about minorities and unions. Lazy, cowardly, and downright dishonest.

I'm glad that you are here, and hope that you'll engage sensibly. For starters, how about this: do you honestly believe that any critique of identity politics is essentially racist?

 

[DotCommunist]

Those of us who are and who fight for women, people of colour and minorities don't call it 'identity politics', by the way. We just call it 'politics.'

thank god you are there to articulate what normal w/c left wingers do as standard while doing jobs to pay the rent and juggling kids and leading non-oxbridge bubble normal lives. You saint

 

[Captain Hurrah]

Why do you fear working class people Laurie?