Alex Callinicos/SWP vs Laurie Penny/New Statesman Facebook handbags

[SpineyNorman]

Just to switch back to the other party in this thread, has anyone else seen the SWP's internal bulletins, parts 2 and 3? A member of theirs from Leeds has made a very revealing and in my view very perceptive contribution (absolutely nails the CC and the culture that surrounds it) and it wouldn't surprise me if there's another split just down the line - reminds me a lot of the left platform thing that kicked off not long after I left, especially the way the leadership dismiss the concerns in part 3.

I'll stick it up on the PD blog if anyone wants to read it.

 

[cockneyreject]

She hasn't broken any posting rules that I'm aware of. There are unanswered questions such as explaining something about this:

"There's a calculation that I've begun to do whenever I find myself visiting an events hall, or a posh set of offices , or the home of someone over 40. I take in the number and size of the rooms and work out how many of the legion poor and peripatetic young people I know could live in the extra space. ... It's easy when you get the hang of it. The second floor of the RSA, for example, could comfortably house ten young families. The ladies' loos at Thomson Reuters could sleep 16 single people if you knocked out some of the sinks. My own father's bachelor pad could squeeze in eight bodies at substantially higher than the living standards most impoverished London renters enjoy. I'm serious. There's only so much space to go around and with millions of young, poor and precariously employed people struggling to hang on to accommodation, the notion of sharing it out more fairly is hardly a crazy communist plot... I'm currently without secure accommodation for the fourth time this year, and trying desperately to find another hovel within commuting distance of my job. It's draining, and it's debilitating, and it's a daily experience for millions of people with the misfortune to be low earners, or immigrants, or under 30."

She's got a real thing about people with a few years on the clock ain't she? Bloody ageist!

 

[cockneyreject]

and we are off

Laurie Penny ‏@PennyRed
Now all the trolls are bitching that I've blocked them. Seriously. What makes these people think I owe them my attention?

Trolls? Such an easy get out Laurie, still, why change now?

 

[ReturnOfElfman]

That's makes perfect sense ViolentPanda until you realise she's older than me....



I remember when I first started out in left-wing politics, when I was like 16 or so, and I was coming into contact with the various groups that were around, and although I was interested in Marx and other class-based stuff I also had this nagging feeling a sense that what they were telling me was inadaquet in a very fundamental way. I couldn't express it, I didn't know enough at the time to put my finger on exactly what it was, but

my influences were really limited too. My parents were old Bennite Labour party people, Arguments for Democracy is probably the first political book I ever read, and my dad got me "Stupid White Men" by Michael Moore when I was towards the end of high school which I'm ashamed to say is what got me interested in left-wing books. I bought a Noam Chomsky book, Understanding Power, shortly after, and that was a lot better.

In retrospect, how strange it is that a young English boy had to get into left-wign politics by Michael Moore and Noam Chomsky? Is that the extent to which the British left-wing tradition has been eroded? That my first influences were American imports, that my political culture was a product of American cultural imperialism?

Anyway, it wasn't until I started reading the IWCA website that I really felt that someone was addressing issues that I was coming up against in my every day life, with my mates, in terms that didn't frighten me away coz I hadn't been to university. And I've been critical of them plenty of times since, fucking hell some of the things Joe Reilly says on here occasionally deserve a bit of sincere criticism, but despite that the fact remains I owe a huge amount of my understanding of the world to them. They have done more to further my knowledge of the world than any fucking priviliged Laurie Penny Oxbrdige wanker has, infact it was these people who really put me off the most, I always used to think that "the left" wasn't something for me, it was for them.

/rant over

Until I went to (an old polytechnic) uni, the only group I knew that were having open political meetings were the BNP (in the working men's club on my street). I find it awful that I had to go to uni to find out about working class politics. These 'socialist' groups seem to spend far too much time on uni campuses than they do in housing estates. If they did go out onto housing estates (doing anything else other than shoving a leaflet through someone's door telling them not to vote BNP) they wouldn't have a clue what to say to people. When I had finished uni and gone back to my home town, it just seemed impossible to do any sort of pro-working-class-community type stuff (similar to what the IWCA have done) because all the leftys wouldn't do anything outside of a city centre or uni campus.

 

[cockneyreject]

Well, it is a way to make money. As long as you can deal with the people who see through you.

I think she's shown she can't though...very well.

 

[Delroy Booth]

Until I went to (an old polytechnic) uni, the only group I knew that were having open political meetings were the BNP (in the working men's club on my street). I find it awful that I had to go to uni to find out about working class politics. These 'socialist' groups seem to spend far too much time on uni campuses than they do in housing estates. If they did go out onto housing estates (doing anything else other than shoving a leaflet through someone's door telling them not to vote BNP) they wouldn't have a clue what to say to people. When I had finished uni and gone back to my home town, it just seemed impossible to do any sort of pro-working-class-community type stuff (similar to what the IWCA have done) because all the leftys wouldn't do anything outside of a city centre or uni campus.

Pretty much exactly the same thing I've been through. So depressng

And btw It's not like working class communities are oblivious to these idea's, there's definitely people out there who are aware of all this stuff, broadly socialist ideas are not alien to working class communities we just have a mainstream centre-left which views anyone outside their metropolitan little bubble as less than human.

Outside of big cities with a uni and a "scene" the left just doesn't exist in any meaningul form. There's still a residual sympathy for left-wing idea's there, but absolutely fuck all by way of organisation. And if it ever came back to w/c communities, you can bet the likes of Penny would be deeply threatened by it and denouncing it before you can even shout "liberal reformist" at them.

And on that note I must say that there's a few people who give it a go. The Socialist Party where I live give it a good go, as do the local anarchist group, but they're so small and impoverished (and in the SP's case wedded to anachronistic and hopelessly outdated trotskyite theory) that the impact they have is pretty much negliable.

I've got a feeling that a half decent, non-patronising, bit of "common sense socialism" divorced from dense uni jargon and boring middle-class fuckwits is exactly what a lot of people from very poor working class backgrounds are crying out for, but there's just fucking no-one even giving it a go, these idea's have been imprisoned in an academic ghetto that only a select few will ever get access to.

 

[emanymton]

Just to switch back to the other party in this thread, has anyone else seen the SWP's internal bulletins, parts 2 and 3? A member of theirs from Leeds has made a very revealing and in my view very perceptive contribution (absolutely nails the CC and the culture that surrounds it) and it wouldn't surprise me if there's another split just down the line - reminds me a lot of the left platform thing that kicked off not long after I left, especially the way the leadership dismiss the concerns in part 3.

I'll stick it up on the PD blog if anyone wants to read it.

I haven't read them, might have a look if you put them up, but I believe said member from Leeds has now been expelled, and he may not be the only one.

 

[goldenecitrone]

Trolls? Such an easy get out Laurie, still, why change now?

Trolls seems to now mean people who aren't famous as in

The trolling class
Can kiss my arse
I've got the New Statesman
Job at last.

 

[rekil]

I've had a few shandies and I'll probably regret this tomorrow but I sent my ex a text and told her about this (it's not a weird out of the blue text to an ex before people get scared - we're still good mates) - she signed up to twatter just take her to task. Laurie's blocked her too.

First laugh of the day. Bravo Emma!


HaslandEmma ‏@EmmaHasland
@PennyRed @spineynorman78 is a wanker but he's no racist. I ask 2 polite questions about u calling him a racist + u block me. Why?

 

[redsquirrel]

I was going to say that LPs comments were pathetic but they are far worse than that.

The smearing of committed anti-facists as racist is disgusting and anyone with even an ounce of decency would apologise. But even beyond that the stupid, lazy dismissal of the IWCA piece as racist is not only offensive but shows precisely why the far-right has gained ground in the UK, and why the left is nowhere.

Whether you agree or disagree with the piece (personally I think it's on the money) it deserves to be considered seriously and the people behind it deserve some respect.

 

[BigTom]

I don't think she read the article til she was challenged, i think she saw the title, didn't recognise the iwca and assumed anti multiculturalism = far right.
If she knew the iwca she would have challenged the article not called ld and spiney racist surely?

e2a: her reaction is what I'd do if someone linked to a bnp/nf/etc blog, which is why i think the above. But if i didn't know the organisation I'd check them out first.

 

[sam goloden]

I've just been told I'm an irrelevance...by a public school Oxbridge graduate
Who'll never be an irrelevance by dint of her money, background and all round nexus of privilege.

Of course she's an irrelevance. Consumer capitalism and the reduction of the political system to merely managing it has made an irrelevance of all of us. Politicos and non-politicos alike. All that counts now is image.

 

[sam goloden]

I remember when I first started out in left-wing politics, when I was like 16

Were you like 16 or actually 16?

Some people on here are like 16 when they're actually 54.

 

[DaveCinzano]

e2a: her reaction is what I'd do if someone linked to a bnp/nf/etc blog, which is why i think the above. But if i didn't know the organisation I'd check them out first.

And that's why you are not an *coff* award-winning, sinecure-securing, globetrotting, privately schooled, Oxbridge-educated mouthpiece of a movement.

 

[DaveCinzano]

Silence is goloden.

 

[sam goloden]

the nightmare of capitalist gender fascism in which we're living.

They were all complaining about this on the bus this morning.


Edit-it's Laura's quote not Sihi's.

 

[Blagsta]

She then stated that she thought the article was racist and the assumptions behind it were racist. I asked her what specifically was racist. Then my account was suspended. Managed to get it back, thanks to SI for help! Apparently I had "abused" the direct mention feature.

 

[weepiper]

Fucking glitter make-up.

 

[DaveCinzano]

She then stated that she thought the article was racist and the assumptions behind it were racist. I asked her what specifically was racist. Then my account was suspended. Managed to get it back, thanks to SI for help! Apparently I had "abused" the direct mention feature.

Silencing critics - what a useful function of privilege!

 

[phildwyer]

But it's not all praise - discussion of the one topic that enquiring minds insist must be given serious attention - the fart - is conspicuous by its absence. So I'll start. On the way back from the pub tonight my mate Matt flawlessly farted the intro to come on Eileen. I was impressed and disgusted, both at the same time.

Oh shit, you're twelve years old.

I feel bad for arguing with you now.

 

[ska invita]

I've got a feeling that a half decent, non-patronising, bit of "common sense socialism" divorced from dense uni jargon and boring middle-class fuckwits is exactly what a lot of people from very poor working class backgrounds are crying out for, but there's just fucking no-one even giving it a go, these idea's have been imprisoned in an academic ghetto that only a select few will ever get access to.

agree...i know i am (crying out for it)... though i'd be interested how people here would define "common sense socialism" - perhaps on a new thread if you feel up to it Del. (Im not sure its common sense socialism thats imprisoned in the academic ghetto....its a different mutant beast rattling around those ivory towers)

 

[Captain Hurrah]

Were you like 16 or actually 16?

Some people on here are like 16 when they're actually 54.

 

[Delroy Booth]

agree...i know i am (crying out for it)... though i'd be interested how people here would define "common sense socialism" - perhaps on a new thread if you feel up to it Del. (Im not sure its common sense socialism thats imprisoned in the academic ghetto....its a different mutant beast rattling around those ivory towers)

No. I think I've said absolutely loads and loads and too much probably already, I perhaps ought to rein myself in a bit more and give way to others. Besides there's much more knowledgable, experienced and articulate members of this forum than me who would be far better suited to such a task.

And regardless, it would inevitably turn into some petty shit-fight and I don't want the responsibility of having kicked it off over my head

 

[ska invita]

fair enough ....ive had a thread on this territory brewing in my head for a while now, will start one in the new year once ive had some rest

 

[rosecore]

I only became aware of this thread as Delroy Booth linked me to it last night after reading Penny's latest debacle. I've never been her biggest fan (her writing style, critiquing things she doesn't understand, e.g. Game of Thrones) I agree mainstream journalism needs better female representation, but anything 'radical' and female typically comes from elite education. (There is nothing wrong with that form of education) I just question when certain people claim to speak for the working class from a position they don't truly understand.

I digress, what really bothered me last night was her flat-out refusal to apologise when she offered no evidence to her claims. Calling somebody racist is a serious accusation, especially when it's based on one link you've posted. (ICWA are hardly Stormfront eh Laurie). Rather than address the questions put to her she focused on why she thought the article was racist and banal but not why she called this person racist. Despite many people vouching for his ant-fascist credentials.

She simply began blocking anyone who questioned her giant leaps in logic, throwing out the troll comments to shut down debate. It worked, Owen Jones (who saw the context of it, later backed out), Billy Bragg, Helen Lewis all jumped on the anti-troll bandwagon without realising the context of her tweets.

Nobody likes to be bullied online, I'm sure some of the abuse she gets is horrible. However, you can't shut down genuine criticism because you started an argument you have no chance of winning.

Instead she made the debate about her. "I don't need to argue with haters" became a rallying call to her allies, the troll card was played. Poor Laurie, stay strong, without ever really addressing the criticisms labelled at her.Out of her depth and looking for a quick way out. Any respect I had for her is now diminished unless she apologies.

 

[cesare]

The problem with elite education is that it educates an elite, who perceive themselves as elite.

 

[Rob Ray]

"then worked as a sub-editor on the Morning Star"

As a former co-worker I'd suggest not using your what, three months (if that), "working" for the Star as material for your "I didn't just walk into a national job" schtick. If the Star had operated as a normal workplace you'd have been repeatedly hauled over the coals for failing to show the slightest interest in doing anything which didn't advance the career of Laurie Penny. Did you even join the union in the end? We certainly asked you enough times and this was during a period when it actually mattered.

As for your journalism, it's just a job - one which in your case involves little to no risk unless you forget your get-out-of-kettle-free press card and find yourself swept into the actual front line. There's journalism with real risk attached but you don't do that stuff Laurie "not getting arrested just for journalism" Penny, you do talks for other liberal-left worthies and op-ed pieces with a bit of protest tourism thrown in. That's not activism.

Activism is doing the hard graft, for nothing (in fact usually paying out of your own pocket), for years on end in the hope of building something halfway sustainable. No glamour, no money, lots of sacrifice. It's blind alleys and wasted time and unemployability and sometimes, rarely, criminal records. How many weekends this year have you set aside to help deal with people in trouble and walk them through their options? How many dull-as-fuck meetings have you been at in 2012, volunteering as point person or offering your time to sub and print a leaflet for a campaign, then standing in the street hawking it?

The reason most people are griping on this thread is a quite palpably sensible one - you've used your expensive education and the many, many other class privileges which you are born to as a method of bypassing the drudgery of actual grassroots organising to get into the media set. Having done so, you've repeatedly exploited actual activists so you can pose as "the voice of the left" as part of a well-known career path of parasitism off the back of those who do the actual work. And then, when they call you on such behaviour, you denounce all of them en masse as sexist trolls and demand to know by what right they judge you.

That should not be the question. The question should be by what right do you speak for them?

In fact thinking about it you part-specialise in radical feminist writing right? How about you do something for the Feminist Library down in Lambeth. I don't mean write another piece in the Staggers, I mean volunteer for a couple years as a fundraiser and promoter. You're well networked with wealthy people, and they need £8k a year to meet rent. Do some proper work, get them new digs and don't use it as another line on your wadical Twitter Bio. It won't give you the right to speak for the left, but it'd be a start.

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

@cesere the smartest girl in a smart school

 

[cesare]

@cesere the smartest girl in a smart school

That's how she badges herself, isn't it? It probably explains the unconscious entitlement she exudes.

 

[TruXta]

That's how she badges herself, isn't it? It probably explains the unconscious entitlement she exudes.

I think her sense of entitlement comes from being that smartest girl, and then after having gone through the whole Oxbridge road turning back and sticking two fingers up at "all of them" whilst clinging to some bastard version of leftie identity, not realising she never left the elite she so proclaims to hate.