2016 Coup in Turkey?

[Celyn]

Ah, I just saw that on Twitter and didn't know what to make of it. Still don't. Things are interesting and odd.

 

[Pickman's model]

phildwyer are you in Turkey ? If so what's it like, nice weekend? Everything chugging along more or less as usual ?

i'm sure he's having a high auld time

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

"Thousands of Turkey coup prisoners 'raped, starved and hogtied'"

Turkish troops imprisoned after the failed military coup are being raped, starved and left without water for days, it is claimed.

Many of the 10,000 detainees are locked up in horses’ stables and sports halls - some hogtied in horrific stress positions, according to human rights campaigners.

Turning very ugly it seems.

 

[elbows]

Wtf?

(US General John F Campbell)

A denial has been reported:

Retired U.S. General Dismisses Allegations He Masterminded Turkey Coup

The Turkish government appear to be keeping the accusation unofficial for now as well, saying they haven't seen the evidence behind that article.

Perhaps its crap posturing or the stoking of anti-US sentiment for future purposes. Perhaps its an attempt to increase pressure on the US to extradite Gulen.

 

[Buddy Bradley]

Wikileaks Put Women in Turkey in Danger, for No Reason

 

[CRI]

Wikileaks Put Women in Turkey in Danger, for No Reason

Came here to post that - jesus

 

[timeforanother]

Edit: oops, wrong thread.

 

[phildwyer]

phildwyer are you in Turkey ? If so what's it like, nice weekend? Everything chugging along more or less as usual ?

I'm going this weekend. Apparently the lines at passport control are four hours long.

 

[phildwyer]

What kind of staff do you think?

No idea, that's why I asked. Fool.

 

[Pickman's model]

No idea, that's why I asked. Fool.

You clueless twat.

 

[Lancman]

Children ! Children ! I've given you such information as I have and I don't intend to involve my informant in any further enquiries.

 

[ManchesterBeth]

Well, I'm not giving in my notice until after I've gone back and sorted all my stuff out. So should be ok. Insallah!

Hem komünist hem de inşallah, vay anam dünya nereye gidiyor.

 

[ManchesterBeth]

well, Jacobin has their moments I guess.

Turkey’s Disaster | Jacobin

 

[ManchesterBeth]

Daft eh?
Just off the top of me head, never claimed to be an 'expert in such matters, unlike your goodself.
But, trying to direct the country towards nationalist, religious 'values' and in doing so, divide the various communities into them ( those who oppose him) and us.
Blatant racism, one who is going to deport 11 million illegals and build a wall to make sure they don't come back, and Erdogan who, if we take a good look at his policies would love to do unto the Kurds what his predecessors did unto the Armenians and Greeks.
Two very unpleasant characters, one of which will be, hopefully laughed into oblivion, the other, much strengthened, will inflict untold damage on an area already damaged beyond belief.

Not that I want to line up with Dwyer here but I guess erdoğan wants to eradicate his predominantly kurdish islamic base of support? what horseshit. The war against the kurds was not instigated by Erdoğan much as he escalated it.

And anyway, who bankrolled Turkey in the 90s?

The country was always directed to nationalist and religious values. Kemalism's so-called secularist project was intended to control religion, not separate it from state. Talk to anyone of the alevi faith and they'll tell you as much - half of my family is of that heritage.

All of this stems from Erdoğan's inability to depose assad. There's a reason why he's cosying up to Putin at the moment. It's clear that the opportunities of 2011 didn't give him the western support he wanted. now he's stifling the military which will mean that he'll have to rely on jihadi groups for foreign policy (in the same way that turkey initially wanted to control and contain isis.)

 

[ManchesterBeth]

Certainly looks that way. Although im not sure how "islamic" Erdogan is. Dont know loads about him, but hes seems to be a brtual, power hungry demagogue first and foremost - rather than motivated by deeply held jihadi-ism.

he's a democrat.

 

[teqniq]

Turks Can Agree on One Thing: U.S. Was Behind Failed Coup

Doesn't seem all that likely to me but what do I know? One thing that does occur is that it seems to be a feature of middle eastern countries that when bad things happen it is often blamed of 'foreign hands'. A particular example that springs to mind is Egypt who have done this rather than admit that their problems may be home-grown.

 

[ManchesterBeth]

Turks Can Agree on One Thing: U.S. Was Behind Failed Coup

Doesn't seem all that likely to me but what do I know? One thing that does occur is that it seems to be a feature of middle eastern countries that when bad things happen if is often blamed of 'foreign hands'. A particular example that springs to mind is Egypt who have done this rather than admit that their problems may be home-grown.

Honestly, anything now is just conjecture, heresay. we don't have nearly enough information. There were certainly divides in the predominantly kemalist military and the kemalist generation towards the coup - a lot of the post-1980 Kemalists were very much against the coup. The authority of the pre-1968 generation isn't very strong in Turkey these days. So who knows really.

 

[phildwyer]

Honestly, anything now is just conjecture, heresay. we don't have nearly enough information. There were certainly divides in the predominantly kemalist military and the kemalist generation towards the coup - a lot of the post-1980 Kemalists were very much against the coup. The authority of the pre-1968 generation isn't very strong in Turkey these days. So who knows really.

The word here is that the coup was Gulenist, and that's it's a bloody good job it didn't succeed.

It's been known for a long time that Gulen is backed by the CIA. So it all adds up really.

 

[phildwyer]

he's a democrat.

Don't be such a berk.

 

[phildwyer]

All of this stems from Erdoğan's inability to depose assad. There's a reason why he's cosying up to Putin at the moment. It's clear that the opportunities of 2011 didn't give him the western support he wanted.

He doesn't give a toss about Western support, and he never did. That's the basis of his appeal for many Turks.

he'll have to rely on jihadi groups for foreign policy

And this is total bullshit (in case anyone doubted it).

 

[purves grundy]

It's been known for a long time that Gulen is backed by the CIA. So it all adds up really.

Really? By CIA standards, that was a rubbish coup attempt. Very poor indeed.

 

[phildwyer]

well, Jacobin has their moments I guess.

Turkey’s Disaster | Jacobin

This isn't one of them.

The article refers, yet again, to Erdogun's "war against the Kurds." I've pointed out many times how stupid that is. Kurdish support for Erdogan is one of the mainstays of his power. It's a disgrace that the Western media continues to equate "the Kurds" with the PKK, and you should be ashamed of yourself for endorsing that equation.

 

[ManchesterBeth]

The word here is that the coup was Gulenist, and that's it's a bloody good job it didn't succeed.

It's been known for a long time that Gulen is backed by the CIA. So it all adds up really.

I don't discount it. I do distrust any AKP narratives though.

 

[ManchesterBeth]

Don't be such a berk.

Oh come on. Democrats can be opportunists and even dictatorial. There's no contradiction here.

I'm a communist, not a democrat.

 

[phildwyer]

Really? By CIA standards, that was a rubbish coup attempt. Very poor indeed.

Yes really.

The coup failed because it was premature. Erdogan was about to bust the deep cover Gulenists in the security forces, so they had to act before they were ready. But you can bet Gulen has a plan B (and plans C-Z come to that). He plays a very long game.

 

[phildwyer]

I don't discount it. I do distrust any AKP narratives though.

This comes from CHP people, not AKP.

 

[ManchesterBeth]

This isn't one of them.

The article refers, yet again, to Erdogun's "war against the Kurds." I've pointed out many times how stupid that is. Kurdish support for Erdogan is one of the mainstays of his power. It's a disgrace that the Western media continues to equate "the Kurds" with the PKK, and you should be ashamed of yourself for endorsing that equation.

Oh come on. I've even alluded to the mass Kurdish islamic base that supports Erdoğan. That doesn't change the fact that the Turkish state has been conducting a war against the Kurds for the past 40 years.

Yes, it's not as clear cut as western commentators would like it to be. But that's a minor quibble. And honestly, it's super easy to say ah it's just the PKK but we all know that Erdoğan is still in that lineage of turkish nationalism.

Do you support Tayyip?

 

[phildwyer]

Oh come on. Democrats can be opportunists and even dictatorial. There's no contradiction here.

Fair enough.

But when you said "he's a democrat," people might get the impression that Erdogan is somehow committed to democracy in principle. Obviously that isn't true. His instincts are profoundly authoritarian, as he is about to demonstrate in no uncertain terms.

 

[ManchesterBeth]

This comes from CHP people, not AKP.

Not surprising that.

 

[phildwyer]

Oh come on. I've even alluded to the mass Kurdish islamic base that supports Erdoğan. That doesn't change the fact that the Turkish state has been conducting a war against the Kurds for the past 40 years.

Yes, it's not as clear cut as western commentators would like it to be. But that's a minor quibble. And honestly, it's super easy to say ah it's just the PKK but we all know that Erdoğan is still in that lineage of turkish nationalism.

Do you support Tayyip?

Certainly not. But I'd take him over Apo any day.