ManchesterBeth
Well-Known Member
Sorry, I've been juggling a lot of shit atm, should have expressed that clearer.
2016 Coup in Turkey?
- Thread starter Treacle Toes
- Start date
Sorry, I've been juggling a lot of shit atm, should have expressed that clearer.
Perhaps not. But do you doubt that Gulen was behind the coup? Or that the CIA support Gulen? Because I see no reason to doubt either.
No problem. I've been wondering what your opinion on this might be, and I'm glad to have the chance to hear it.
ManchesterBeth
Well-Known Member
A plague on both their houses, but I can certainly see where you're coming from, coming I do from a Kurdish islamic background myself.
ManchesterBeth
Well-Known Member
I don't have access to turkish television anymore which still seems to be the best way to keep track of these things so I'm just going off newspapers and online resources. I think if what we know turns out to pretty much be the alpha and omega then yes Gülen being behind the coup is probably true. As a desperate last grab.
I think any fair-minded person must sympathize with Kurdish grievances, and most could be induced to look favorably on their demands for increased autonomy.
But launching a full-on Maoist People's War (complete with 1930s-style personality cult) was no way to go about things. All it was ever going to do was bring down the wrath of the state and put a compromise solution (which is the only feasible solution) yet further out of reach.
I know you know this, but there are many here who don't.
purves grundy
ambient clown remix
Is this just armchair joining-the-dots or is there evidence for this?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
what do we know which leads you to this conclusion? and do you think you would have extra evidence - or should that be "evidence"? - if you did have access to turkish tv?
ManchesterBeth
Well-Known Member
Well, the turkish/kurdish ultraleft have been saying this for ages. But Maoism tends to be great for doctrinaire middle class western leftists going through an identity crisis - this has been going on since the late 60s.
I mean for christ's sake PKK was a movement spearheaded by intellectuals - there was no proletarian component. Democratic confederalism isn't anything that the Kurdish bourgeoisie desire - even if they might have desired national autonomy in the hayday of national liberation.
Still, anyone on the left should unequivocally condemn the actions of the Turkish state.
ManchesterBeth
Well-Known Member
There is no evidence that Erdoğan orchestrated this coup. Literally none. Everything I have heard about this idea has been conjecture and idle speculation. And the Kemalists have predominantly come out anti-coup. The pro-coup wing of the Kemalists has been tiny. Many of the military were given false terrorist alarms from what I've heard, but these didn't come from any AKP quarters.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
and by process of elimination you believe that gulen's responsible despite adducing no evidence here to support that case.
ManchesterBeth
Well-Known Member
The gülenist struggle has been an ongoing thing in Turkish politics. I mean, I don't think Gülen is the demon RTE et al make him out to be. After all, Erdoğan required the support of the nurcu movement to come to power and many of them were initially strong (and one could say very fervent) AKP party cadre. So I think their history is not quite taken account of in western commentary.
ManchesterBeth
Well-Known Member
Er no.
He'll be back though.
The story I hear is that Zerki Aksakill, the head of the Special Forces, ordered his men to oppose the coup. As soon as the coup leader General Terzi read out the declaration that Erdogan was deposed, Aksakilli's man pulled out his revolver and shot him in the head, killing him, before himself being riddled with bullets by the enraged plotters. That seems to have been the turning point.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
so if it's not that then why do you think it is gulen's coup?
It's really the only theory that makes sense.
Gulen has built up an incredibly rich and powerful empire, he has millions of people and billions of dollars at his disposal. He literally has money to burn--an acquaintance of mine was offered $50,000 to write a favorable magazine article about him. Other people I know have been on luxury trips around the world, fully paid for by Gulen, with nothing asked for in return--yet.
He's advancing a pro-Western version of Islamic politics that couldn't suit the CIA better if they'd designed it themselves. He's not being allowed to live in the USA out of charity. The coup revealed what had been long suspected--that he controls a network of deep cover agents in every field of Turkish society, who are willing to drop their cover whenever he tells them to do so. That's what people like the Mayor of Ankara mean when they say he works through djinn.
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ManchesterBeth
Well-Known Member
Either way, anecdotally speaking gülenists are the most ferocious anti-kurds I've ever met. They put kemalists to shame.
ManchesterBeth
Well-Known Member
Not as much as they'd like. Their real strength lies in civil society and cultivating turkish expats and businessmen. They're massive in UK for instance whilst the AKP's appeals have been embarrassing.
The Gülenists have been around since the 80s. the AKP didn't exist prior to the 2000s. The previous Erbakan islamists believed in some kind of state market economy. It was the gülenists who ruled with the coalition govt after 1997. No gülenists, no AKP. It's that simple.
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frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
i dunno - do they really have that much influence to organise this coup?
I think recent events have revealed how much power they have. Enough to stage a serious coup attempt, but not enough for it to succeed. Basically they pulled the trigger too soon, because they realized Erdogun was onto them. Now he's going to root them out as best he can, but no-one really knows who stands where. People who seemed to be loyal AKP cadres turned out to be nothing of the sort. And plenty of people are sitting on the fence, waiting to see where the cards fall.
ManchesterBeth
Well-Known Member
Again I'd rather wait for more information before giving you a definite answer. But look at this from a prominent american neocon from march 2016 as an aside.
A coup against Turkey’s increasingly erratic leader is in the cards
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
do you think there could have been any CIA/outside involvement? I don't think it's likely tbh, but it's possible given the displeasure the USA had with turkey's foreign policy. there doesn't seem to be much in the way of "unbiased" facts about the coup though.
ManchesterBeth
Well-Known Member
It certainly seems possible. I mean, the CHP itself is in shambles, has been for ages - ever since the Deniz Baykal corruption scandals. If the Kemalists staged this it would have been suicidal. They're actually playing a decent game for once.
Why not? What do you think the CIA does, play tiddleywinks?
ManchesterBeth
Well-Known Member
One thing also worth mentioning is the hardcore fash came out anti-coup. I need to get food and roll a cig but yeah the MHP totally sided with erdogan. And they're no joke in Turkey, they're able to command 16% of the vote.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
the coup was not well organised enough.
ManchesterBeth
Well-Known Member
Are you Turkish? I didn't know they were appealing to the non-Turkish community in that way now. Distribution of books and cassettes is how he managed to gain the support of the expat islamic business class.
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