‘March for the Alternative’ - 26th March - London

[Kizmet]

and that is the point nailed. Being a british copper means a certain inherent conservatism will prevail- and unless the gov. does or orders done something that seriously breaches the 'good copper, good man' morality the individual holds then they will do as told.

it'd also be stupidity itself to trust any of them who did 'turn' so to speak.

This government are foolish enough to breach that morality with self-interest.

 

[past caring]

I only put out for the girlfriend on Sat night 'cos she bought me a curry.



*Scabs*

 

[Fedayn]

Parliament are now muttering over Boris Johnsons comments re the weekend, any idea what they were?

 

[ska invita]

Home Sec is in parliament now talking about football like 'banning orders' against individuals prior to marches etc.

Also greater use of the powers to enforce removal of face masks etc. I saw that for the first time since my hunt sabbing days at the weekend

..would be an interesting development, answerable only with Lets All Mask Up Together action

How did it play out in HuntSab days Dan - did they succeed in de-masking? a lot harder when there hundreds strong marching together id imagine...

 

[gawkrodger]

going off the ticker on BBC I suspect it's the bi-yearly debate on

a) giving police more powers to deal with 'violent' demonstrations
b) Making masking up illegal

 

[temper_tantrum]

Parliament are now muttering over Boris Johnsons comments re the weekend, any idea what they were?

Said Ed Miliband was 'quietly satisfied' with the rucks etc kicking off.
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/stand...ck-on-ed-miliband-is-wrong-and-disgraceful.do

Mr Johnson had suggested Mr Miliband's only solution to the country's economic problems was to "get a load of aggressive crusties and Lefties" to cause "argy-bargy" in London. In his Telegraph column, he added: "The sad thing is that in spite of their crocodile tears, Balls and Miliband will feel quietly satisfied by the disorder - a token, they will tell themselves, of the public feeling that is out there to exploit."

Mr Johnson said 4,500 police officers had been "obliged to waste their time (and our money)" in controlling events as peacefully as they could.

 

[Fedayn]

Said Ed Miliband was 'quietly satisfied' with the rucks etc kicking off.

He really is a bit of a fud isn't he? Johnson I mean..... Well, in this instance.

 

[temper_tantrum]

He really is a bit of a fud isn't he? Johnson I mean..... Well, in this instance.

What amazes me is how he's managed to create this pseudo-intellectual 'oh he's so clever' image, by quoting a bit of Latin and being a contrarian here and there, when actually he's sub-par on the brains front, even for a Tory.

 

[Red Cat]

The Anne Summers in Soho had smashed windows, and there was another sex shop, on Brewer St, that had "sex is not for sale" spray painted on it. Ironic I thought, given that sex very much is for sale in Soho.

There was something about sexism painted on the windows of the Ann Summers shop.

 

[Fedayn]

What amazes me is how he's managed to create this pseudo-intellectual 'oh he's so clever' image, by quoting a bit of Latin and being a contrarian here and there, when actually he's sub-par on the brains front, even for a Tory.

Because the media help him create that image. They like to giver him that 'intellectual' who's a man of the people schtick/.... Snidey class hatred added to patronising arrogance aswell to imply his stupidity makes him like ordinary folk....

 

[Dan U]

How did it play out in HuntSab days Dan - did they succeed in de-masking? a lot harder when there hundreds strong marching together id imagine...

Yeah that was it basically, picking off small groups and telling them to demask. Funny enough the same way I saw it happening at the weekend

 

[rekil]

There was something about sexism painted on the windows of the Ann Summers shop.

What's wrong with being sexy.

 

[shaman75]

Can't get audio on my computer at the mo, but looks like some interesting footage on this video:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/video/2011/mar/28/march-alternative-police-video

was quite interesting actually. cheers.

 

[revlon]

It's not impossible for all three of those factors to have been at work - they're not mutually exclusive.

I'd be hesitant to say that moral is low, but only because I don't know/socialise with OB and don't know anyone who does - so I've simply no way of guaging this. And given that for large numbers of the population who will most definitely be affected by the cuts in the months and years to come, the cuts have still yet to become part of everyday reality, I'd be surprised if a particular section of society that has traditionally been protected from austerity measures in the past (i.e. the OB) were at present experiencing a drop in moral over something that has yet to happen. I think that any apparent lack of moral on the day is more likely to be explained by officers' own awareness that they weren't being hugely effective.

That said, it did strike me on the day that a significant number of police transports/mini-buses were not their own and had been hired from Europcar - something I've not seen in the past. And - whether through strategic error or design - they were certainly a few steps behind on more than one occasion (e.g. - reinforcements arriving Shaftesbury Avenue long after they were needed; a couple of thousand protestors moving away from Oxford Circus, south down Regent Street, not with the intention of going anywhere else, but to expand the area held by the protestors and make it that much more difficult to kettle - and the police being unable to stop that).

Ultimately though, I think it is perhaps a mistake to concentrate too much on the issue of whether perceived failings in police tactics were as a result of error or came about as a result of a longer strategic view - because from our point of view I don't think it matters hugely.

What I do think we need to remember is;

1. The police have long since stopped being even nominally neutral. By which I do not mean that they side with capital (that has always been the case) but that at chief constable/intelligence/policy level, they most certainly do have an agenda and are quite happy to lobby for that agenda (the agenda is a quite open one - "we need more resources - look at these threats we are facing") and to engineer situations so that their concerns are shown to have some merit. It may not have been the case that strategic thinking on this occasion was "We'll let the anarchos have their head of steam for a bit - the'll show the government what happens if we don't wade in/have enough resources" - but that doesn't mean they're not capable of this type of thinking/planning.

2. Any hope of breaking significant numbers of police from their traditional role rests on making our fight effective, rather than hoping for strikes or union organisation within police ranks. Their training, conditions, privileged position, isolation from mainstream society all mean that the requisite introspection is unlikely on anything other than an individual level - at least until the question of who governs becomes a much more immediate one.

excellent post. Just a couple of other bits

1. the two top cops ultimately making the decisions on the day we both new boys in terms of heading up large public order situations, which may have some bearing on why things went the way they did,

2. they could have a section 60 in place right at the beginning and used to throughout the day just as a policy of disrupting the flow of the black bloc, the fact they didn't use it would've come from high up the chain - acpo territory.

3. there's a lot of internal politics and power struggles going on amongst the top cop elite at the minute - 'intelligence gathering' once the school prefects of public order are more or less finished, acpo's losing it's status as unquestionable policy makers and there's a new generation of fearless mischief makers who can out run the lot of us

 

[Red Cat]

What's wrong with being sexy.

Sexy as defined by who?

Or was that irony...

 

[Blagsta]

I think it was a joke.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I'll expand...

In most other countries plod will not be tolerated within the body of the demo. This helps create 'in'(demonstrators) and 'out'(filth) groups. Through this identity, the more conservative elements will more easily identify with the demonstrators engaging in direct action.

Police should not be tolerated to wander freely within demo. The body of the demo should be a no-go area for them.

Well, if you'd said that in the first place...

I thought you were implying something more complex than straightforward not cop/cop cleavage, something along the lines of the lions lying down with the lambs, not merely differentiating the masses from the donkeys.

 

[butchersapron]

I think it was a joke.

I like the 'think' bit

 

[stethoscope]

Cheers for your posts PC, revlon - interesting to read your thoughts on the machinations of the police

 

[rekil]

I think it was a joke.

 

[Red Cat]

I think it was a joke.

Irony then.

Is this P&P?

 

[stethoscope]

I deliberated replying to copliker as I wasn't entirely sure!

 

[Blagsta]

Irony then.

Is this P&P?

No humour allowed!

 

[Blagsta]

I like the 'think' bit

Well it is Monday...

 

[Red Cat]

I thought maybe this thread was in general and I don't remember copliker's politics.

 

[ViolentPanda]

And how many marches and loss of jobs/services do we have to have before we realise that strikes, whether small or large, and possibly affecting vital services might be needed in order to send a message to those in power?

Let's face it, Steph. You and I both know that marches alone aren't going to cut it, that industrial and possibly societal action beyond marching is necessary, but we also know that certain workers, because of their specific work ethos or ethical code, will still provide their services during a strike. That doesn't, however (whatever Kizmet may believe to the contrary) mean that some members of that profession shouldn't take industrial action on behalf of their colleagues, "pinching" those services without closing them off completely.

Kizmet will complain that this will inevitably cost lives, but the truth is that it has never been proven (and G-d knows the Tories tried during their last reign to do so) that industrial action by emergency services caused greater loss of life than would have occurred if no industrial action had taken place.

 

[Blagsta]

I thought maybe this thread was in general and I don't remember copliker's politics.

I think he likes cops.

 

[past caring]

Another joke?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Personally I don't think many more. I think there is a potential for mass support that will do more than send a message. That will actually encourage a change of direction under the threat of a chamge of leadership.

Have you checked the broadcast media today? There's a very strong discursive impulse toward dismissing the march for various reasons (many of which have already been mentioned on this and other threads). Those who are in power, along with their paymasters and hangers-on, aren't going to buckle easily over the cuts, and while it would be nice if Clegg and his party imploded, opening the way for a possible new election, you can be sure that the Tories will do just as they have when previously in coalition - go out of their way to shore up the faction that supports them. Huhne has doubtless already been visited by various men in pinstriped trousers telling him how "unwise it would be to rock the political boat right now, old chap".

Change of direction is unlikely (although u-turns on parts of policies are possible, perhaps even probable), because both parties to the coalition have invested too much in this. Both parts have pretty much pissed off a significant minority (or more) of their grass roots membership, so for those MPs there may be no going back on the cuts, personal greed and selfishness will triumph over what's best for their constituents.

 

[Blagsta]

Another joke?

Mondays are a struggle innit.