March for Palestine 14th & 28th October 2023

[Riklet]

There's no such thing as a futile gesture.

Solidarity with everyone doing something, no matter how small it is.

 

[PTK]

They may have well not bothered?

Well, the march was literally a demonstration of public feeling on this issue. Politicians are sensitive to some extent to public opinion. We need to use such demos as a platform to encourage direct action, such as trades unions putting an embargo on exporting arms to Israel.

 

[Gramsci]

On a related note, just seen this BBC story (last week's news, clicked thinking it might be from today):

Pro-Palestinian march draws thousands in London with protests across UK

Police warn that anyone showing support for Hamas, a proscribed terrorist group, could face arrest.

www.bbc.co.uk

Is that just the caption writer messing up, or are the cops seriously threatening to prosecute people for letting off flares now?

People were letting off flares. Cops did not intervene.

 

[The39thStep]

Bit too cynical. I've been on many useless marches but.

This one, taken along with other massive ones that are going on, are the best we can do to show support and keep on record there is massive opposition to what Israel is doing. So in these days of tinternet social media blah blah it's both psychologically and historically important.

It's not going to change things in Gaza, politically, directly. But. It's definitely better than nothing.

The turnout looked on the TV to be a tremendous grass roots achievement. No huge backers and in the face of Braverman's and the Met's threats, a hostile media, abstention by the TUC and the Labour Party's opposition one can only admire the size of that march.

 

[Mr.Bishie]

Well, the march was literally a demonstration of public feeling on this issue. Politicians are sensitive to some extent to public opinion. We need to use such demos as a platform to encourage direct action, such as trades unions putting an embargo on exporting arms to Israel.

I know, my response was directly aimed at the comment I quoted.

 

[PTK]

I know, my response was directly aimed at the comment I quoted.

Sorry, I intended to reply directly to the comment to which you were responding.

 

[Mr.Bishie]

It was a sarcastic reply tbh

“Let’s all stay at home, whilst our family & friends are slaughtered in Gaza…”

 

[Wilf]

A few friends and acquaintances in those pictures. Thanks. I wish I had been well enough to go.

Me too, health issues as well. I'm not keen on march + speech things, but this was just one where it felt like there was a need to be there. Won't make much difference to what will happen but, I dunno, bearing witness. And in the middle of all those emotions, not forgetting the obscenities done against the Israeli victims too.

 

[Wilf]

The turnout looked on the TV to be a tremendous grass roots achievement. No huge backers and in the face of Braverman's and the Met's threats, a hostile media, abstention by the TUC and the Labour Party's opposition one can only admire the size of that march.

Also, following on from that, no cheap or subsidised coaches, in fact I'd guess the only coaches would have organised at the grassroots. Similarly, train tickets booked at the last minute are expensive. Required a bit of commitment getting there.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Well maybe you shouldn't side with what you believe night be the company's opinion

I’ve done nothing of the sort. Someone up thread said BTP were investigating. You’ve been arguing with me for pretty much zero reason.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Opinions held by the company and BTP recently:

Police investigate London Tube driver's pro-Palestinian chant

Unverified video of a "free Palestine" chant on the train's intercom is investigated by authorities.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[emanymton]

.

I know that and the driver would have known that. Sometimes you have to have the courage of your convictions and accept the consequential fall out ,

Yes, but but that doesn't mean one has to help the people going after the guy.

 

[Wilf]

Suspect the driver's going to get a disciplinary at the very least. But police involvement, wtf? Some all encompassing 'public order' thing? But still, wtf.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Idk but it would be weird for a company to make appeals to the public less so for the BTP. I doubt the BTP are doing the internal investigation.

 

[tim]

.

Yes, but but that doesn't mean one has to help the people going after the guy.

Who is helping anyone? The people who complain will complain. The cat was out of the bag the as soon as the driver said what he said.

Broadcasting the comments of the driver on social media, is propaganda, that encourages others to take a stand and hopefully upholds the driver and the stance he took.

 

[platinumsage]

Suspect the driver's going to get a disciplinary at the very least. But police involvement, wtf? Some all encompassing 'public order' thing? But still, wtf.

He should be disciplined by his employer. He's a train driver whose job it is to ensure the safety of passengers, and this includes making them feel safe (this is why they are always quick to announce the reason for being stopped in a tunnel for example).

Sure you may know of a Jewish person who you think would have felt safe on that train, but can you honestly say the vast majority of Jews in London would have felt safe there?

 

[andysays]

The turnout looked on the TV to be a tremendous grass roots achievement. No huge backers and in the face of Braverman's and the Met's threats, a hostile media, abstention by the TUC and the Labour Party's opposition one can only admire the size of that march.

FWIW, my local TUC group in Haringey did organise to attend the demo collectively, including taking banners I believe.

 

[andysays]

He should be disciplined by his employer. He's a train driver whose job it is to ensure the safety of passengers, and this includes making them feel safe (this is why they are always quick to announce the reason for being stopped in a tunnel for example).

Sure you may know of a Jewish person who you think would have felt safe on that train, but can you honestly say the vast majority of Jews in London would have felt safe there?

Lucky the vast majority of Jews in London have got you here as their spokesperson then

 

[Wilf]

He should be disciplined by his employer. He's a train driver whose job it is to ensure the safety of passengers, and this includes making them feel safe (this is why they are always quick to announce the reason for being stopped in a tunnel for example).

Sure you may know of a Jewish person who you think would have felt safe on that train, but can you honestly say the vast majority of Jews in London would have felt safe there?

Well, it probably wasn't a wise thing to do, brave, almost certainly principled, but not a great idea at least in terms of his/her future employment. But then they probably knew they had a good number of people attending the demo on the tube, so, well I'd cut them a bit of slack. Would Jewish people on the train feel unsafe or under fire, yes, I'd have thought so. Would people who are being threatened with losing their job (for posting even moderately pro-Palestinian sentiments) all over the USA and in other countries feel safe? Nope. And much, much, much more to the point, do people in Gaza feel safe at the moment? And I say that, of course, recognising the utter horrors that kicked off this phase of the conflict.

Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is that responses by employers, politicians, social media companies to anyone making partisan statements are absolutely one sided. In that context, a few chants on a tube train are a drop in the ocean.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

We are in a very strange and worrying place where saying 'Free, Free, Palestine' can be construed has a hate crime.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

We are in a very strange and worrying place where saying 'Free, Free, Palestine' can be construed has a hate crime.

We don’t know it’s that. Like I said it’s an investigation probably looking at a disciplinary. BTP can be involved in that kind of stuff on the railways.
It would be the normal police investigating hate crimes.

 

[Pickman's model]

Well, it probably wasn't a wise thing to do, brave, almost certainly principled, but not a great idea at least in terms of his/her future employment. But then they probably knew they had a good number of people attending the demo on the tube, so, well I'd cut them a bit of slack. Would Jewish people on the train feel unsafe or under fire, yes, I'd have thought so. Would people who are being threatened with losing their job (for posting even moderately pro-Palestinian sentiments) all over the USA and in other countries feel safe? Nope. And much, much, much more to the point, do people in Gaza feel safe at the moment? And I say that, of course, recognising the utter horrors that kicked off this phase of the conflict.

Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is that responses by employers, politicians, social media companies to anyone making partisan statements are absolutely one sided. In that context, a few chants on a tube train are a drop in the ocean.

We know not all Jews are zionists so please don't make the equation that hearing Palestine will be free or whatnot over the speakers echoed by fellow passengers will make all Jews nervous or whatever.

 

[Pickman's model]

Lucky the vast majority of Jews in London have got you here as their spokesperson then

Fuck knows what they've done to deserve that unhappy honour

 

[Magnus McGinty]

We know not all Jews are zionists so please don't make the equation that hearing Palestine will be free or whatnot over the speakers echoed by fellow passengers will make all Jews nervous or whatever.

They might still feel under fire if not Zionists.

 

[hitmouse]

People were letting off flares. Cops did not intervene.

Yeah, but ime cops usually try to avoid making arrests at demos cos they don't want to provoke flashpoints that could turn into a riot, a lot of the time their approach is to identify people from footage and then knock on doors days or weeks down the line. Which would seem wildly disproportionate if they're going to try and do it over a bit of coloured smoke.

Also, following on from that, no cheap or subsidised coaches, in fact I'd guess the only coaches would have organised at the grassroots. Similarly, train tickets booked at the last minute are expensive. Required a bit of commitment getting there.

I was assuming it was mostly much a Londoners-only demo, I can't speak for everywhere in the country but I would've assumed most people would've had a local one to go to? Manchester was pretty massive yesterday: RECAP: Thousands of protesters flood MediaCity over BBC Gaza coverage

He should be disciplined by his employer. He's a train driver whose job it is to ensure the safety of passengers, and this includes making them feel safe (this is why they are always quick to announce the reason for being stopped in a tunnel for example).

Sure you may know of a Jewish person who you think would have felt safe on that train, but can you honestly say the vast majority of Jews in London would have felt safe there?

The vast majority of Jews in London wouldn't have been safe there, if you packed the vast majority of Jews in London onto one train it would be dangerously overcrowded. HTH.

 

[Pickman's model]

They might still feel under fire if not Zionists.

They might be a load of things. But it's not really on imo to assume what those things would be on the basis of their heritage

 

[Magnus McGinty]

They might be a load of things. But it's not really on imo to assume what those things would be on the basis of their heritage

It was a daft thing for the driver to do imo. Aside from the idiot uploading it to Twitter you don’t know who is on the train. TFL managers also use the tube to get around although one clearly wasn’t on that train as it would have come tumbling down faster than it is.

 

[Pickman's model]

It was a daft thing for the driver to do imo. Aside from the idiot uploading it to Twitter you don’t know who is on the train. TFL managers also use the tube to get around although one clearly wasn’t on that train as it would have come tumbling down faster than it is.

Yes but nothing to do with what we were discussing

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Yes but nothing to do with what we were discussing

Which was… British Transport Police getting involved in matters of the railway? They absolutely do. It’s what they’re there for. Including staff issues. It isn’t WH Smith.

 

[Pickman's model]

Which was… British Transport Police getting involved in matters of the railway? They absolutely do. It’s what they’re there for. Including staff issues. It isn’t WH Smith.

Which was Jews and the chant on the tube train