March for Palestine 14th & 28th October 2023

[Magnus McGinty]

Which was Jews and the chant on the tube train

Some were questioning police involvement. The BTP aren’t regular police. They’re basically a private company with police powers but enforcing things like railway bylaws etc. I actually said anything hate crime related would be a matter for the police not BTP.

 

[tim]

He should be disciplined by his employer. He's a train driver whose job it is to ensure the safety of passengers, and this includes making them feel safe (this is why they are always quick to announce the reason for being stopped in a tunnel for example).

Sure you may know of a Jewish person who you think would have felt safe on that train, but can you honestly say the vast majority of Jews in London would have felt safe there?

I can't imagine feeling less safe in the Central Line than in Gaza, the West Bank or even in Israel.

Supporting the rights of Palestinians does
not make you an antiSemite and we all have a right to express that support.

 

[platinumsage]

I can't imagine feeling less safe in the Central Line than in Gaza, the West Bank or even in Israel.

How is that relevant to a Jewish person on the train, unless you think they deserve to feel unsafe?

Supporting the rights of Palestinians does
not make you an antiSemite and we all have a right to express that support.

There are plenty opportunities to do that outside of a public service role if your message may make some service users feel unsafe.

 

[tim]

How is that relevant to a Jewish person on the train, unless you think they deserve to feel unsafe?



There are plenty opportunities to do that outside of a public service role if your message may make some service users feel unsafe.

So you are saying that we can't challenge injustice and oppression because it may make a hypothetical idvidual who isn't suffering oppression feel uncomfortable.

 

[platinumsage]

So you are saying that we can't challenge injustice and oppression because it may make a hypothetical idvidual who isn't suffering oppression feel uncomfortable.

No, I'm saying tube drivers shouldn't make political protest announcements. It's quite simple, unless you think a driver speaking in support of women who makes trans people feel uncomfortable is fine, or a Fathers4Justice driver who makes women uncomfortable is fine. They're free to protest outside of speaking to a train they're in charge of which is full of members of the public.

 

[PTK]

No, I'm saying tube drivers shouldn't make political protest announcements. It's quite simple, unless you think a driver speaking in support of women who makes trans people feel uncomfortable is fine, or a Fathers4Justice driver who makes women uncomfortable is fine. They're free to protest outside of speaking to a train they're in charge of which is full of members of the public.

I think that you make a valid point.
Should members of the public on a tube train engage chanting, do you think?

 

[tim]

No, I'm saying tube drivers shouldn't make political protest announcements. It's quite simple, unless you think a driver speaking in support of women who makes trans people feel uncomfortable is fine, or a Fathers4Justice driver who makes women uncomfortable is fine. They're free to protest outside of speaking to a train they're in charge of which is full of members of the public.

Saying that people have a right to live in freedom rather than under oppression is good. If it makes other feel uncomfortable because they don't feel people should live free from oppression, I don't care.

 

[phildwyer]

They have UK hostages, coud have demanded the UK government do something directly about them. The demands were varied but mostly seemed to forget the people that were tortured, murdered, raped or kidnapped last week by Hamas.

Organize your own demo.

 

[platinumsage]

Saying that people have a right to live in freedom rather than under oppression is good. If it makes other feel uncomfortable because they don't feel people should live free from oppression, I don't care.

Well, maybe you should care. Not everyone will experience and understand a particular protest in the same way you do. I'm sure pro-lifers protesting outside abortion clinics think that they're trying to save the lives of babies and that people who object ought to feel uncomfortable. But surprisingly not everyone views the issue in the same way.

 

[krtek a houby]

Well, maybe you should care. Not everyone will experience and understand a particular protest in the same way you do. I'm sure pro-lifers protesting outside abortion clinics think that they're trying to save the lives of babies and that people who object ought to feel uncomfortable. But surprisingly not everyone views the issue in the same way.

That's because the two issues are entirely different.

People are being targeted, fired and blacklisted in Israel because they dare to speak out against the conflict.

Are you in favour of that, as well as silencing a trainload of people?

 

[platinumsage]

That's because the two issues are entirely different.

People are being targeted, fired and blacklisted in Israel because they dare to speak out against the conflict.

Are you in favour of that, as well as silencing a trainload of people?

I’m not in favour of people being fired for expressing an opinion outside work. I am in favour of disciplinary action for employees who push (yes, it’s not like the train passengers had a choice about sticking around to hear him out) their political opinions on to their customers whilst knowing that some may feel unsafe because of that. The two issues are entirely different.

 

[krtek a houby]

I’m not in favour of people being fired for expressing an opinion outside work. I am in favour of disciplinary action for employees who push (yes, it’s not like the train passengers had a choice about sticking around to hear him out) their political opinions on to their customers whilst knowing that some may feel unsafe because of that. The two issues are entirely different.

And yet you mentioned abortion clinics.

 

[The39thStep]

How is this campaign to sack the tube driver going ? Is there a petition?

 

[platinumsage]

And yet you mentioned abortion clinics.

In a vain attempt to get you to try and understand that just because someone thinks a protest is right and good, doesn’t mean they can’t have empathy with those who might view it differently.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

I can't imagine feeling less safe in the Central Line than in Gaza, the West Bank or even in Israel.

Supporting the rights of Palestinians does
not make you an antiSemite and we all have a right to express that support.

Do we? Not sure that expressing any sort of political opinion whilst in a public serving role is actually a right.

 

[krtek a houby]

In a vain attempt to get you to try and understand that just because someone thinks a protest is right and good, doesn’t mean they can’t have empathy with those who might view it differently.

In that case, my empathy is unreservedly with the driver and passengers. Hope that clears it up for you.

 

[platinumsage]

In that case, my empathy is unreservedly with the driver and passengers. Hope that clears it up for you.

You don’t care about any Jewish people on the train who might feel unsafe in that situation?

 

[krtek a houby]

You don’t care about any Jewish people on the train who might feel unsafe in that situation?

No, I'm a monster.

You don't care about any Palestinians or people with family in Gaza who might feel anxious?

 

[platinumsage]

No, I'm a monster.

Ok, good to know.

You don't care about any Palestinians or people with family in Gaza who might feel anxious?

Yes, they weren’t on this train though.

 

[krtek a houby]

Ok, good to know.



Yes, but they weren’t on this train.

There were no people with family ties to Palestine on the train?

 

[platinumsage]

There were no people with family ties to Palestine on the train?

Not ones made anxious by the driver’s chanting, I wouldn’t have thought.

 

[xenon]

What the fuck is going on here. Are people being deliberately thick. It’s quite conceivable that a Jewish person may have felt uncomfortable on that tube . It’s not like antisemitic morons aren’t already attacking Jewish businesses. Driver should not be sacked but a talking to is in order.

 

[krtek a houby]

What the fuck is going on here. Are people being deliberately thick. It’s quite conceivable that a Jewish person may have felt uncomfortable on that tube . It’s not like antisemitic morons aren’t already attacking Jewish businesses. Driver should not be sacked but a talking to is in order.

If the driver or passengers were being antisemitic and/or attacking Jewish businesses, then of course that's out of order.

 

[emanymton]

What the fuck is going on here. Are people being deliberately thick. It’s quite conceivable that a Jewish person may have felt uncomfortable on that tube . It’s not like antisemitic morons aren’t already attacking Jewish businesses. Driver should not be sacked but a talking to is in order.

If a Jewish person did feel uncomfortable on the train I imagine it was due to being surrounded by people carrying Palestinian flags and probably already chanting. I don't think the actions of the driver changed much. It's not like a buch of normal commuters where whipped into a frenzy.

 

[hitmouse]

I feel fairly confident in saying that I don't think either the driver or passengers were attacking Jewish businesses while they were on the train, because they were on a train.

 

[platinumsage]

If a Jewish person did feel uncomfortable on the train I imagine it was due to being surrounded by people carrying Palestinian flags and probably already chanting. I don't think the actions of the driver changed much. It's not like a buch of normal commuters where whipped into a frenzy.

There's a difference between having "staff will surely help if I experience abuse on this train" at the back of your mind compared with, rightly or wrongly "staff probably won't be on my side".

Also there's emboldenment, a racist attack is more likely where it appears to the perpetrator that it might be condoned by authority.

If we were talking about any other minority we wouldn't be having this conversation.

 

[Wilf]

There's a difference between having "staff will surely help if I experience abuse on this train" at the back of your mind compared with, rightly or wrongly "staff probably won't be on my side".

Also there's emboldenment, a racist attack is more likely where it appears to the perpetrator that it might be condoned by authority.

If we were talking about any other minority we wouldn't be having this conversation.

In the last 2 weeks there's been an atmosphere where support for the Palestinians has been explicitly portrayed as support for terrorism, with western governments, social media companies and others leading the charge. That includes attempts to get people sacked. I've said what the tube driver did was 'unwise' and I'd say the same if they had been expressing pro-Israeli sentiments. But the fact that this bit of chanting has garnered attention forgets how the wider 'official' public space has been dominated by anti-Palestinian sentiments (and threats).

 

[hitmouse]

There's a difference between having "staff will surely help if I experience abuse on this train" at the back of your mind compared with, rightly or wrongly "staff probably won't be on my side".

Also there's emboldenment, a racist attack is more likely where it appears to the perpetrator that it might be condoned by authority.

If we were talking about any other minority we wouldn't be having this conversation.

I've been trying hard to think of what a suitable comparison might be, and I reckon that if, for instance, England were to win the Euros next year, and there was a tube train full of people waving England flags, and the driver started a chant of "Engerland, Engerland, Engerland" or similar, it might well make people from a variety of minorites feel uncomfortable. I still don't think I'd want the driver to be sacked in that instance.

 

[A380]

There's a difference between having "staff will surely help if I experience abuse on this train" at the back of your mind compared with, rightly or wrongly "staff probably won't be on my side".

Also there's emboldenment, a racist attack is more likely where it appears to the perpetrator that it might be condoned by authority.

If we were talking about any other minority we wouldn't be having this conversation.

But, but ‘Jews don’t count’ as a minority obvs.

 

[platinumsage]

I've been trying hard to think of what a suitable comparison might be

Yes, I've tried that previously and I think it doesn't work. This is a unique situation, not like any other "normal" war involving a visible minority who are the "enemy", and not like transgender rights or pro-lifers and certainly not like England football fans.

I'd just start by listening to who says they are afraid to go out in public, has had to dress differently or felt the need to close their schools, and then take it from there.