Are you going on the “Hate March”? (11/11/23) - Poll

[mojo pixy]

It certainly doesn’t seem antisemitic to me, mainly for the reason mentioned by mojo pixy

It seems to me that it opposite-says Israel shouldn’t exist.

It certainly means Israel shouldn't exist in the brutally oppressive, racist state it currently exists in. But this isn't even an anti-Israel sentiment IMO, let alone anti-semitic. It imagines more than anything a changed Israel, not a non-existent one. Unfortunately too few people have the courage or imagination to try and create this change. And too many people are actively opposed to it for basically racist reasons.

Also, Israeli spokespeople more and more seem to act as if they speak for all Jews everywhere and it's a shame this so rarely gets challenged. But not a surprise because for years now anything other than the unquestioning acceptance of that pretence as if it were reality gets you if not Jewish branded anti-semitic, or if Jewish a self-hating jew.

 

[Gramsci]

So apparently the chant “from the river to the sea Palestine will be free” is antisemitic because it questions the existence of the state of Israel.

Is it?

‘From the river to the sea’: What does the Palestinian slogan really mean?

Critics have called its use anti-Semitic amid Israel’s war on Gaza. But the slogan has more complex roots.

www.aljazeera.com

Original Party Platform of the Likud Party

Encyclopedia of Jewish and Israeli history, politics and culture, with biographies, statistics, articles and documents on topics from anti-Semitism to Zionism.

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org

Likud party platform

The Right of the Jewish People to the Land of Israel (Eretz Israel)​

a. The right of the Jewish people to the land of Israel is eternal and indisputable and is linked with the right to security and peace; therefore, Judea and Samaria will not be handed to any foreign administration; between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty.

b. A plan which relinquishes parts of western Eretz Israel, undermines our right to the country, unavoidably leads to the establishment of a "Palestinian State," jeopardizes the security of the Jewish population, endangers the existence of the State of Israel. and frustrates any prospect of peace.​

 

[Cloo]

I'm disinclined to come down too hard on 'from the river to the sea', I think the origins can probably be classed as antisemitic, but there's no reason why an enthusiastic activist should necessarily know this.

 

[Gramsci]

To put things in perspective most of the chanting I heard was Ceasefire Now.

Which according to Starmer is equivalent to allowing Hamas to re arm.

So there you go whatever one says in present climate is going to get criticised.

What opponents of the To the River to the Sea chant seem to forget/ push into the background is that this was Palestinian land and historically back in 1948 ( so not that long ago) Haganah and other Jewish paramilitary groups expelled Palestinians from their land.

Not only expelled but murdered Palestinians they saw as trouble makers.

The villages were either demolished or used to house Jews.

The land stolen from Palestinians was given to the Jewish National Fund to distribute to Jews

Palestinians have been stopped from returning to their land.

This is all documented historical fact.

Israel was founded on ethnic cleansing and stealing land.

 

[A380]

To put things in perspective most of the chanting I heard was Ceasefire Now.

Which according to Starmer is equivalent to allowing Hamas to re arm.

So there you go whatever one says in present climate is going to get criticised.

What opponents of the To the River to the Sea chant seem to forget/ push into the background is that this was Palestinian land and historically back in 1948 ( so not that long ago) Haganah and other Jewish paramilitary groups expelled Palestinians from their land.

Not only expelled but murdered Palestinians they saw as trouble makers.

The villages were either demolished or used to house Jews.

The land stolen from Palestinians was given to the Jewish National Fund to distribute to Jews

Palestinians have been stopped from returning to their land.

This is all documented historical fact.

Israel was founded on ethnic cleansing and stealing land.

So, in your opinion, in 2023 should the state of Israel exist?

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Imagine if calling for the end of apartheid in South Africa was deemed racist to whites. And then rethink the question?

 

[Wilf]

Personally im not comfortable with doxing people (even aggressive bellends or far right arseholes) and grassing them up to their work and the police. I can see why people do. But Im sure the police would find them anyway cant be that hard.

The coconut banner is distasteful and maybe a bit racist but seems like a massive over reaction police getting involved.

Yeah I was going to post something similar. As to the 3 dickheads who were abusive in the station, racists full stop, I'm happy to see them get whatever shit is coming. But I'd rather it was through a bit of collective action than their bosses

 

[TopCat]

and how do "white people" act?
I am White. Am I acting like a Black person when I speak up in favour of a ceasefire in the Gaza Strip?

You perhaps could look at the historical use of the term coconut in the UK in the last thirty years.

 

[Gramsci]

Was watching Novara media and this piece of shit came up. A former Labour MP who advises this Tory government.

Wants to make it easier to ban marches.

At moment the Police have to see possible violent disorder to suggest to ban march.

He points at the recent marches to support Palestinians - which have been peaceful- as why the guidelines should be tightened up

As far as he is concerned , despite them being well organised/ peaceful/ working with police over route, they are anti semitic. Fostering increase in anti semitism.

In good old fashioned Labour party way he puts it like this:

“It is not enough simply to say that lots of the people who go on the marches aren’t anti-Semitic and just care about the plight of people in Gaza, therefore they should be allowed... the marches are clearly a vehicle which is contributing to this huge rise in anti-Semitism, and we would not accept that argument in other contexts.”

At this point, as much as I like Novara Media , I had to turn it off.

This kind of shit from the political establishment - whether they are Tory or Labour - is so making me angry.

And his recommendations could be seriously entertained by Governments.

So even if one is not saying anything anti semitic one is anti semitic is the logic.

Fuck this.

UK Government review to urge law change to ban pro-Palestinian marches

AN official government review is arguing for a change in the law so that police can ban pro-Palestinian marches.

www.thenational.scot

 

[GarveyLives]

Analysis of media coverage:

The Rightwing Media Is Very Upset About the Remembrance Day Disorder It Helped Cause

 

[GarveyLives]

An analysis of last Saturday's events following the attempts by the now immediate past Home Secretary to incite racial conflict at this protest:

How the UK far right hijacked Armistice Day

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

So, in your opinion, in 2023 should the state of Israel exist?

Maybe, but not in 2024.

 

[WhyLikeThis]

Very good.

 

[xenon]

Maybe, but not in 2024.

Lolz yeah.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

So, in your opinion, in 2023 should the state of Israel exist?

Not in its current form as a racist state.

Note that this is not the same as saying that 7 million Jews need to leave. It is simply saying that those 7 million Jews need to recognise Palestinians as humans like them who are from that same land and have nowhere else to go.

A single state with equal rights for all and guarantees for various groups, including Jews. Sit down and start negotiating such a thing. There is no other path to peace.

 

[Leighsw2]

look to anyone wearing fred perry your paying 75 quid or more for a fucking polo shirt

you may not be fascist but you are draf cunt

now if you are in the uk or america and wearing fred perry yellow trimmed polo shirts

you are more than likely a fucking fascist

I have Fred Perry t-shirts. One is gold (yellow) trimmed. I've been wearing them for over 30 years and I'm not going to let these fascist cunts take that away!

 

[Leighsw2]

How does "allowing" work here? Are stewards going to check each of the 300,000 (or however many it was) attendees for objectionable slogans before allowing them to join? Yes, it was an objectionable placard and I wouldn't have made or carried it myself, but it's a fantasy to think that you're ever going to get 300,000 (or however many) people together without some of them making decisions that you think are unwise or counterproductive. Given the numbers, it seems like the proportion of people doing dickhead stuff, however broadly you define that, was amazingly low.

Agree with this, but apparently Peter Tatchell was prevented from joining the march because he had an anti-Hamas placard. (Well he claimed this anyway.)

 

[PTK]

Not in its current form as a racist state.

Note that this is not the same as saying that 7 million Jews need to leave. It is simply saying that those 7 million Jews need to recognise Palestinians as humans like them who are from that same land and have nowhere else to go.

A single state with equal rights for all and guarantees for various groups, including Jews. Sit down and start negotiating such a thing. There is no other path to peace.

Supporting a united 32-county republic of Ireland does not imply that you want all the Protestants to leave, and supporting a single bi-national state in Israel-Palestine does not imply that you want all the Israeli Jews to leave. There needs to be "parity of esteem" as there is in the Belfast Good Friday Agreement.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Agree with this, but apparently Peter Tatchell was prevented from joining the march because he had an anti-Hamas placard. (Well he claimed this anyway.)

Tatchell has been vocally anti-Hamas for many years. Good for him.

I actually only made it about a minute in to this interview. The interviewer is a total cunt. Tatchell is very clear about what he thinks about the protests in his opening remarks.

 

[klang]

Yeah I was going to post something similar. As to the 3 dickheads who were abusive in the station, racists full stop, I'm happy to see them get whatever shit is coming. But I'd rather it was through a bit of collective action than their bosses

I'd get shot of them if i was their boss

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

So, in your opinion, in 2023 should the state of Israel exist?

There's also something decidedly weird about a country which has a 'right of return' which allows unfettered immigration by people whose ancestors were deported by the Assyrian Empire or the Babylonian Empire or the Roman Empire. Yet people who were deported by the state of Israel aren't allowed in.

 

[mojo pixy]

There's also something decidedly weird racist about a country which has a 'right of return' which allows unfettered immigration by people whose ancestors were deported by the Assyrian Empire or the Babylonian Empire or the Roman Empire. Yet people who were deported by the state of Israel aren't allowed in.

cfy

 

[A380]

There's also something decidedly weird about a country which has a 'right of return' which allows unfettered immigration by people whose ancestors were deported by the Assyrian Empire or the Babylonian Empire or the Roman Empire. Yet people who were deported by the state of Israel aren't allowed in.

So do you think, here in 2023, the State of Israel
exist?

 

[editor]

Some pics from the march - In photos: Huge Pro-Palestinian march fills the streets from Victoria to Vauxhall, Sat 11th Nov 2023

 

[littlebabyjesus]

So do you think, here in 2023, the State of Israel
exist?

Do you think, here in 2023, that the State of Palestine should exist. If not, why not? If yes, what form do you think it could take? Do you think something along the lines of the Oslo Accords could ever work? Why do you think it has failed so far? What do you think can change to make it work? Or is a new approach needed?

Playing silly gotcha-style games by posing overly simplistic questions is kind of offensive. Pretending these problems don't exist. Ignoring the plight of Palestinians.

 

[A380]

Do you think, here in 2023, that the State of Palestine should exist. If not, why not? If yes, what form do you think it could take? Do you think something along the lines of the Oslo Accords could ever work? Why do you think it has failed so far? What do you think can change to make it work? Or is a new approach needed?

Playing silly gotcha-style games by posing overly simplistic questions is kind of offensive. Pretending these problems don't exist. Ignoring the plight of Palestinians.

Yes, in my opinion the state of Palestine should exist.

My post wasn’t a ‘simplistic gotcha’ it was a simple question. Why don’t you answer it?

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

So do you think, here in 2023, the State of Israel
exist?

I've always thought that racist, apartheid states should not exist. That includes Israel too.

 

[krtek a houby]

So do you think, here in 2023, the State of Israel
exist?

Not in the current state it's in

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Yes, in my opinion the state of Palestine should exist.

In what form?

I have answered your question. I don't care what a new state shared equally by Palestinians and Israelis would be called, btw. There would no doubt be arguments over the name, but I'm guessing even you can see that that's not what's important.

 

[Larry O'Hara]

Tatchell has been vocally anti-Hamas for many years. Good for him.

I actually only made it about a minute in to this interview. The interviewer is a total cunt. Tatchell is very clear about what he thinks about the protests in his opening remarks.

I listened to the whole thing: both the interviewers were snides but (and I dont agree with all Tatchell said) he came across very well. What a pity his campaign to become a Left Labour MP all those years ago was sabotaged…