‘March for the Alternative’ - 26th March - London

[Balbi]

The question is what can be done to overcome this? Im not sure.

Give it six months. When services get blitzed, inflation stays up and wages go down - those people will be less relaxed.

 

[ViolentPanda]

So you voted for these fuckers but now you're playing the righteous anger against me?

As I tried to get across earlier, nobody voted for "these fuckers". People voted for one or another of three main parties, and two of those parties formed a coalition. In many cases this wasn't what the party's members wanted, but rather suited the purposes/needs of the parliamentary parties.

Rail against people for voting stupidly, by all means, but it's not really correct to rail against Lib-Dem voters for voting for/electing the coalition, because they didn't (which is a prime reason why the Lib-Dem grass-roots are suffering an unprecedented membership loss).

 

[DrRingDing]

The question is what can be done to overcome this? Im not sure.

They need to identify with people doing the direct action.

This can be achieved by using a little knowledge of social identity theory.

Also marching people into exhaustion for hours on end will trim the less devout to the pub/home.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Can the police strike?

Difficult one. As "crown officers", they're denied a "right to strike" (as are the military), but I'm not aware of the strength of the prohibition on striking having been tested in court since back in the 1990s. TBF, I can't see the Police Federation not having at least got a legal opinion on this, so we may yet see striking coppers picketing New Scotland Yard.

 

[stethoscope]

Froggy - give it time, unfortunately things will probably hit harder before people start to 'come round' to such actions. There's still a perception (not helped by the media) that this is just somehow about public sector workers, but the wider public will surely start to see services and jobs in their own areas decline, families/friends suffering and then 'any means neccessary' starts to become more a possibility.

I spoke to a couple of very Middle England ladies on Saturday who said they'd never gone to a march before, weren't union members (and probably not of left-persuasion) but were seeing some services for the elderly being eroded with no alternative offered by 'the big society'... that will surely increase.

There's always going to be a reasonable section of the public that will view direct actions/'anarchists' as being criminals/thugs, etc. Unless things get really bad. These people will frown upon such actions happening in the UK ('coz we're a democracy') yet will quietly 'cheerlead' such things happening elsewhere such as the East if it means overthrowing oppressive regimes, etc!

Until that time, those of us who believes in marches, demo's and actions have to keep up the pressure.

 

[Kizmet]

Frankly, if you were to wait for a universal strike to be called by that point it would probably be too late for a lot of services and workers in them.

Maybe, maybe not. The is little prospect of saving some of them, I think.

 

[ViolentPanda]

And you are arguing for the sake of arguing.

No, I'm not. I'm arguing with you because you are talking shite.

Individually you didn't refute a single point.. just made a personal comment or tangental point for each one.

You haven't made any points. You've made a mass of unsupported assertions about poster behaviour, about NHS staffing and about a host of other things, but you haven't made anything that more than remotely resembles a "point".

 

[stethoscope]

Maybe, maybe not. The is little prospect of saving some of them, I think.

So, that's that then?

 

[Proper Tidy]

People just worry about the reaction from the media and the general public - although ime the general public are far more relaxed about direct action than people give them credit for, and the media will be hostile anyway.

Although I was embarrassed for the anarkid rapping in front of a line of coppers in Hyde Park.

And we had a couple of PCS members on our coach who were angry because they had been outside when some people smashed a Starbucks window in - they said they were fine with direct action against banks etc but there were ordinary people in Starbucks when the window went in. And they have a point on that.

 

[DotCommunist]

Difficult one. As "crown officers", they're denied a "right to strike" (as are the military), but I'm not aware of the strength of the prohibition on striking having been tested in court since back in the 1990s. TBF, I can't see the Police Federation not having at least got a legal opinion on this, so we may yet see striking coppers picketing New Scotland Yard.

they certainly don't have the moral right.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Give it six months. When services get blitzed, inflation stays up and wages go down - those people will be less relaxed.

Problem being that six months down the road will mean that much harder a fight, and an additional six months for our political masters to find ways to circumvent the political effects of mass action.

 

[ViolentPanda]

They need to identify with people doing the direct action.

This can be achieved by using a little knowledge of social identity theory.

It'd still be difficult to balance the spread of appropriate identity-groups through a march so that everyone will interpollate with someone of a dissimilar outlook, though.

Also marching people into exhaustion for hours on end will trim the less devout to the pub/home.

Thank you for that, comrade Stalin!

 

[ViolentPanda]

So, that's that then?

It's like LLETSA, but without the articulacy and constant mentions of Russia.

 

[Kizmet]

No, I'm not. I'm arguing with you because you are talking shite.



You haven't made any points. You've made a mass of unsupported assertions about poster behaviour, about NHS staffing and about a host of other things, but you haven't made anything that more than remotely resembles a "point".

Nope. I think, perhaps, you wilfully missed them.

 

[ViolentPanda]

they certainly don't have the moral right.

That's just as you'd expect from a profession that seldom demonstrates any moral base to their professional practice though, surely?

 

[Kizmet]

So, that's that then?

How can that be that when I've been talking about the need for bigger and more frequent marches?

 

[frogwoman]

People just worry about the reaction from the media and the general public - although ime the general public are far more relaxed about direct action than people give them credit for, and the media will be hostile anyway.

Although I was embarrassed for the anarkid rapping in front of a line of coppers in Hyde Park.

And we had a couple of PCS members on our coach who were angry because they had been outside when some people smashed a Starbucks window in - they said they were fine with direct action against banks etc but there were ordinary people in Starbucks when the window went in. And they have a point on that.

Yep.
And good post steph x

 

[DrRingDing]

It'd still be difficult to balance the spread of appropriate identity-groups through a march so that everyone will interpollate with someone of a dissimilar outlook, though.

I'll expand...

In most other countries plod will not be tolerated within the body of the demo. This helps create 'in'(demonstrators) and 'out'(filth) groups. Through this identity, the more conservative elements will more easily identify with the demonstrators engaging in direct action.

Police should not be tolerated to wander freely within demo. The body of the demo should be a no-go area for them.

 

[stethoscope]

How can that be that when I've been talking about the need for bigger and more frequent marches?

And how many marches and loss of jobs/services do we have to have before we realise that strikes, whether small or large, and possibly affecting vital services might be needed in order to send a message to those in power?

 

[stethoscope]

And we had a couple of PCS members on our coach who were angry because they had been outside when some people smashed a Starbucks window in - they said they were fine with direct action against banks etc but there were ordinary people in Starbucks when the window went in. And they have a point on that.

Yeah I know what you're saying PT, but, whether a bank full of ordinary people banking, or a Starbucks full of ordinary people drinking, the action is still ultimately directed towards the organisation/business, not those people inside it. Not sure what the option is on that one because either way ordinary people can get hurt/caught up in the action potentially. And yet, I still smiled seeing Starbucks having its windows put in because of my feelings towards them. I think that makes me a bad person.

 

[Kizmet]

And how many marches and loss of jobs/services do we have to have before we realise that strikes, whether small or large, and possibly affecting vital services might be needed in order to send a message to those in power?

Personally I don't think many more. I think there is a potential for mass support that will do more than send a message. That will actually encourage a change of direction under the threat of a chamge of leadership.

What is it that you are hoping to achieve?

 

[Blagsta]

He's been trying for a decade to make himself known as the academic voice of the IWW (he's still at it in that article). I wonder if he knew where the IWW phone was on saturday - because it sure as hell wasn't with him.

Is he a member?

 

[stethoscope]

Personally I don't think many more. I think there is a potential for mass support that will do more than send a message. That will actually encourage a change of direction under the threat of a chamge of leadership.

What is it that you are hoping to achieve?

I'd like to see a reversal that it's a bad thing to have a large public sector and that everything should be fished out to the private sector - connected with at least addressing the balance which people/organisations in society get hit the most if making cuts. Preferably we don't make cuts and start to re-distribute wealth properly.

I'd certainly like to see a change of government too, problem is I don't see even much in an alternative with Labour other than it being not as bad as the Tories/fake Tories.

 

[butchersapron]

Is he a member?

Not sure he is, at least i've never seen him claim it - and the stuff he writes usually has a blurb saying who they belong to. Most of is academic work is on US socialists in the first half of last century. he rarely seems to write on anything today - and after that crap i see why.

 

[Blagsta]

Them firefighters are sound. The posties too.

on the Facebook, "I support London's finest firefighters", there's a real mix of opinion about the black bloc actions, mostly against, but some for.

 

[Kizmet]

I'd like to see a reversal that it's a bad thing to have a large public sector and that everything should be fished out to the private sector - connected with at least addressing which people/organisations in society get hit the most when making cuts. I'd certainly like to see a change of government too, problem is I don't see even much in an alternative with Labour other than it being not as bad as the Tories/fake Tories.

Me too, how do you hope it will happen?

 

[Blagsta]

Well my day was all a tad pedestrian..... Took me and a mate, alon with other PCS reps I know, 3 hours to get from Embankment to Trafalgar Square.... By then it'd become obvious that the demo was slowing for somthing.... So we fucked off to the pub....

Yeah, mine was too, but had to be with a 3 year old and a pregnant partner! Got to embankment at about 1ish, still loads of people not set off, did the route up to Trafalgar Square, then wandered through Soho, past the smashed Anne Summers, up to Oxford Circus. Had a look at trojan horse, some bloke tried to tell me it was all a masonic set up, I told him to go away, then we went back to my mum and dad's.

Glad we went though.

 

[strung out]

so of the 201 arrested on saturday, 149 people were charged, and 138 of those were charged for aggravated trespass at fortnum and mason

 

[stethoscope]

Me too, how do you hope it will happen?

Marches, demo's, strikes, direct action, community engagement (but IMO, this doesn't have to be in any order - they can be complimentary and organised) to make a stand and some noise to both the government and the public who seem to think that its inevitable to have cuts because there are no other ways.

 

[past caring]

The question is what can be done to overcome this? Im not sure.

Much will, I think, depend on what happens in the months to come.

The aftermath of the Poll Tax riot saw very little "disconnect" between those who had fought the cops and "ordinary" members of anti-poll tax groups and this was, I think, for a number of reasons (at least in my group - though I think my experience was far from unique).

Things like the miners' strike and Wapping were not just history - they were part of many people's lived experience (I remember after being found not-guilty of some charges following some anti-fash stuff, talking to a couple of women on the jury in the pub afterwards - my brief had expressed concern 'cos they looked like "ordinary housewives" - who were entirely disbelieving of what the police witnesses said, following their husbands' experiences at Wapping. One of these women later ended up in my anti-poll tax group) at the time and so many were prepared to reject what was put forward by the media. Also, it was clear that many "ordinary" people had been involved in resisting the cops - the kind of people who made up the anti-poll tax groups.

That kind of stuff isn't part of people's everyday experience at the moment - though it may come to be.

But all that may be a bit of a tangent on my part.

I think that a lot will depend on how much people involved with UKUncut or other groups are prepared to get involved with local anti-cuts groups, are prepared to put their experience at the service of those groups - and how much those groups can avoid being dominated by the traditional left.

Some of the kind of actions/tactics which can succeed - e.g. occupations of nurseries or libraries which are to be closed because of cuts and keeping those services open to the public with a combination of volunteers from the public and workforce - are not that radical, or rather, they are not too much of a radical departure, in that many non-politically committed people can be persuaded of their viability. But such actions, if not actually unlawful, still bring people into fairly immediate conflict with the law, into conflict with received notions of who manages and why and into conflict with what they may have thought of as their own capabilities up to that point.

There will be plenty of opportunity for that kind of action in the months to come. And that will, I think, create the possibility of people accepting the importance of action other than conventional marches, even where they might not get involved themselves.

Hopefully, some of the squatter/social centre types will think long and hard about their role - there's been some signs of that in the Deptford Jobcentre squat/social centre. I know that they've been very keen for it to be a proper community resource and a place where those fighting the cuts can meet or come for help etc. So there's been a quite up-front approach of not allowing parties/raves etc. in an attempt to exclude the life-styler types that might put off a lot of working class people from getting involved. I've not been down myself yet, but I've spoken to a couple of mates with their heads screwed on and things are definitely moving in the right direction with that. Early days though......