‘March for the Alternative’ - 26th March - London

[xes]

hey man, bed sores need a dressing!

 

[ViolentPanda]

In strikes where nurses and doctors vote to strike they invariably still provide emergency level cover.

As do those care and residential homes with unionised staff.

As such there are few if any disabled people left to their own devices as a result of the strike.

This is my own experience.

Which is not the case as regards those who will be affected by the cuts.

Which does, though, include many people with disabilities.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Emergency level cover costs lives. In a myriad of ways that would be to painful and gory to go into. Of this I have personal experience.

You pointed out yourself how some hospitals are already operating at emergency levels.

Emergency level cover generally means one thing above all else - a toughening of standard triage procedures.

As for costing lives, of course it does, but I haven't seen any research, in 20-odd years of occasionally looking, that proves that more people die during such situations than die in the normal run of things. The situation generally (but not always, obviously) turns out to be that the deceased would have died whether normal service was in place or not.

 

[Kizmet]

I suspect that kizmet is on about stuff like catheterisation, medication, anti-bedsore measures, supervision of feeding and the like.

And infection control.

 

[Proper Tidy]

So in that I would like to thank you for showing me my limits. Now could you please shut the fuck up about it and engage me on some other aspect of this discussion.

Yet you use it again.

And this subject is probably a little too close to home for me to be dispassionate about.

You dishonest little shit.

 

[Proper Tidy]

I suspect that kizmet is on about stuff like catheterisation, medication, anti-bedsore measures, supervision of feeding and the like.

I suspect that Kizmet made a statement without having a specific idea in mind of what he meant, as he saw it as a useful dig to make - and then got pulled up on it.

 

[ViolentPanda]

You are using disabled people to justify inaction in the face of a brutal attack on... disabled people.

Of course, if you ask people with disabilities their opinion, a lot will tell you "fuck inaction, let's do what we can to get shake the cunts up". Now, for some of us, that may mean less marching and more irritating politicians with letters, phonecalls and e-mails, but cause the twats in parliament and Whitehall enough problems, and they may get the message - don't fuck with us.

 

[Corax]

It's that 'emergencies only' service that worries me. The main problems with medical care aren't in the ICU's, HDU's or operating theatres... it's on the wards and in the outpatients. Where inappropriate standards of care already put thousands at risk.

You're not wrong with that, but a 24 hour general strike will make fuck all difference to the risk.

 

[invisibleplanet]

Who'd have thought that it was more important to concentrate on cycling the same bit of aerial footage of the Metropolitan Police Aerial Kettle Display Team rather than broadcasting clips of the spokespeople and the testimonies of those who attended. I was very disappointed with the coverage. I expect more from my license fee. Srsly.

 

[Corax]

I was very disappointed with the coverage. I expect more from my license fee. Srsly.

Too deadpan for words.

 

[ViolentPanda]

It's that 'emergencies only' service that worries me. The main problems with medical care aren't in the ICU's, HDU's or operating theatres... it's on the wards and in the outpatients. Where inappropriate standards of care already put thousands at risk. It's in the daily services that prevent people from falling over in the shower or on the toilet or help them to eat.

These are at biggest risk from the cuts, but they are so precarious that we have to be very careful how it is dealt with.

And they are. I don't know if you've ever been on the receiving end of services during an industrial dispute, but my own experience is that those staff at work are as conscientious as at any other time, and that any problems are generally a function of ongoing infrastructural and staffing issues, not of transitory manning levels.

 

[ViolentPanda]

And infection control.

Infection control in a hospital environment is a busted flush, and has been since CCT of hospital cleaning services. As the DoH and the individual trusts have found out over the last 20 years, the only way to control infection is to spend above the lowest tender on cleaning.

While CCT/the "internal market"/part-privatisation may be financially efficient, it's extremely inefficient in terms of causing higher spend down the line to remedy the faults it causes.

 

[Kizmet]

You're not wrong with that, but a 24 hour general strike will make fuck all difference to the risk.

How do you work that out?

 

[Streathamite]

why am I imagining Andrew Hertford shaking his haloed head at the tv while drinking a can of Directors Bitter?

 

[Streathamite]

I think we should be very careful not to mix up someone's 'rights'. With what is 'right'.

utter crap. Either the right to organise collectively, and take industrial action in defence of your fundamental interests is non-negotiable...or you roll over

 

[Kizmet]

Infection control in a hospital environment is a busted flush, and has been since CCT of hospital cleaning services. As the DoH and the individual trusts have found out over the last 20 years, the only way to control infection is to spend above the lowest tender on cleaning.

While CCT/the "internal market"/part-privatisation may be financially efficient, it's extremely inefficient in terms of causing higher spend down the line to remedy the faults it causes.

Absolutely. And in this environment how can it be seen to be a good idea to suggest a 'down tools'?

If the suggestion is that this will somehow improve for that 24 hour period then perhaps those tools should be permanently downed.

 

[Corax]

How do you work that out?

I would have thought it self-evident. Why do you think that a 24 hour general strike would have any effect on the risk on wards or in OPD? Wards are already staffed at the minimum and nothing will change there, and waiting one day more for an OPD appt will make fuck all difference (clinically) to anyone.

 

[Kizmet]

utter crap. Either the right to organise collectively, and take industrial action in defence of your fundamental interests is non-negotiable...or you roll over

That's true, but it has little relevance to what I said.

 

[Streathamite]

There was a very small 'Hands off Libya' (green flags a-plenty) on the pavement by Westminster Bridge yesterday.

The FRFI! mob were also zeroing in on that

 

[Streathamite]

That's true, but it has little relevance to what I said.

It has compelete relevance to the implication immanent within it

 

[Corax]

Infection control in a hospital environment is a busted flush, and has been since CCT of hospital cleaning services. As the DoH and the individual trusts have found out over the last 20 years, the only way to control infection is to spend above the lowest tender on cleaning.

Bit of a tangent, but I don't think cleaning is the biggest factor in infection control. Our hospital has a shit cleaning company. Our infection rates are amongst the best in the country. The things that made a difference, it seems, were bare below the elbows and hand sanitisation by clinicians.

 

[Kizmet]

I would have thought it self-evident. Why do you think that a 24 hour general strike would have any effect on the risk on wards or in OPD? Wards are already staffed at the minimum and nothing will change there, and waiting one day more for an OPD appt will make fuck all difference (clinically) to anyone.

It's not self evident. I think the effects could be devastating for people already at risk from inappropriate levels of supervision and care. Infection control standards slipping below already shoddy standards will result in many more deaths... not always easily traceable back to an initial source. Falls, breakages, burns on people trying to cope without careworkers who are late, stretched and ill-prepared. Those are just some examples.

 

[Kizmet]

Bit of a tangent, but I don't think cleaning is the biggest factor in infection control. Our hospital has a shit cleaning company. Our infection rates are amongst the best in the country. The things that made a difference, it seems, were bare below the elbows and hand sanitisation by clinicians.

Contact care. At the hospital my mum was at their use of agency staff led to higher rates of infection... especially during the night.

 

[claphamboy]

I would have thought it self-evident. Why do you think that a 24 hour general strike would have any effect on the risk on wards or in OPD? Wards are already staffed at the minimum and nothing will change there, and waiting one day more for an OPD appt will make fuck all difference (clinically) to anyone.

And how would a 24 hour general strike by public sector workers hurt the government?

I asked this earlier, because I doubt it would, but no one seems to want to explain.

 

[Kizmet]

It has compelete relevance to the implication immanent within it

What?

 

[Proper Tidy]

And how would a 24 hour general strike by public sector workers hurt the government?

I asked this earlier, because I doubt it would, but no one seems to want to explain.

Or because people thought it too obvious to be worth answering.

How does a strike affect the employer. I mean, really.

 

[Kizmet]

I suspect that Kizmet made a statement without having a specific idea in mind of what he meant, as he saw it as a useful dig to make - and then got pulled up on it.

You asked me for personal details. I didn't expect that when I originally posted. It ain't normal to ask someone aggressively to prove their parents are disabled.

Perhaps had you asked in a more adult way I may have explained my personal circumstances more... it's no big secret. But with your attitude I wouldn't give you a hair out of my arse.

Please feel free to crow about it as if it was some kind if victory. Well done.

 

[Corax]

It's not self evident. I think the effects could be devastating for people already at risk from inappropriate levels of supervision and care. Infection control standards slipping below already shoddy standards will result in many more deaths... not always easily traceable back to an initial source. Falls, breakages, burns on people trying to cope without careworkers who are late, stretched and ill-prepared. Those are just some examples.

Okay, let's break it down into two simple statements then:
Ward staffing levels are at a minimum.
Nothing would change on wards in the case of a general strike.

And how would a 24 hour general strike by public sector workers hurt the government?

I asked this earlier, because I doubt it would, but no one seems to want to explain.

Profile. International news coverage. A very clear expression of public dissatisfaction and rebellion. The only thing governments are afraid of (barring neckshots) is mass unpopularity, because that threatens their power and income.

 

[Kizmet]

Okay, let's break it down into two simple statements then:
Ward staffing levels are at a minimum.
Nothing would change on wards in the case of a general strike.

You talk about numbers like a manager. I am worried about the already poor standards of care. How will these remain unaffected?

 

[Proper Tidy]

You asked me for personal details. I didn't expect that when I originally posted. It ain't normal to ask someone aggressively to prove their parents are disabled.

Perhaps had you asked in a more adult way I may have explained my personal circumstances more... it's no big secret. But with your attitude I wouldn't give you a hair out of my arse.

Please feel free to crow about it as if it was some kind if victory. Well done.

If you don't wish to discuss something personal, then don't cite it as justification for an argument. Or people will conclude that you are using the age-old internet tactic of 'I am an authority on this I just can't tell you why'.

And I couldn't give a fuck what you would or would not give me because I think you are a right-wing cunt.