‘March for the Alternative’ - 26th March - London

[spring-peeper]

They also reported that on Libyan TV the London demo was shown and it was reported that the demo was the British people demonstrating against the use of force in Libya and that Libya is calling for the UN to have a no-fly zone in the UK to protect the people from the forces of the state.

Are you serious?

*goes off to find a link*

 

[Kizmet]

Of course it's more complex, more complex than your simplistic no right to strike schtick too.

It's only simplistic because you basically made it up. I didn't say anything about taking anyone's rights away.

 

[Proper Tidy]

It's only simplistic because you basically made it up. I didn't say anything about taking anyone's rights away.

Oh.

When there's a million on the street in every city across the land and that still doesn't work then maybe we can think about sacrificing the short term vulnerable for the long term.

 

[claphamboy]

Are you serious?

Yep, they are better at this stuff than Saeed al-Sahaf, the former Iraqi press secretary, otherwise known as Comical Ali.

 

[Kizmet]

Where is your evidence that a litany of demos will change their minds. A cynic might say that yesterday was the TUC having a radical 5 minutes. Buw even if we have more demos what will it actually bring?

That's the thing. I don't know that anything will change their minds. But I do believe a general strike will only be effective if the majority of the country is behind it. And the only way the government will know that the majority of the country are behind it is when truly large numbers of people are motivated to show they are behind it.

 

[Fedayn]

It's only simplistic because you basically made it up. I didn't say anything about taking anyone's rights away.

But you don't think it is right for people who care for, work with disabled people are able to strike? And that you don't want them to strike. What else are you doing but wanting to deny them the right to strike? You may not want to have it legally enforced but you have certainly made it plain you don't think it is right for them to do so. However you look at it you want to deny them the right to strike.

 

[Fedayn]

They also reported that on Libyan TV the London demo was shown and it was reported that the demo was the British people demonstrating against the use of force in Libya and that Libya is calling for the UN to have a no-fly zone in the UK to protect the people from the forces of the state.

There was a very small 'Hands off Libya' (green flags a-plenty) on the pavement by Westminster Bridge yesterday.

 

[Fedayn]

That's the thing. I don't know that anything will change their minds. But I do believe a general strike will only be effective if the majority of the country is behind it. And the only way the government will know that the majority of the country are behind it is when truly large numbers of people are motivated to show they are behind it.

Well it doesn't need the majority of the country to be behind it because if there is a general strike, ie a full withdrawal of labour by those in work, those participating will be far more powerful than the angry opinions of those opposing it in the press.

 

[claphamboy]

And you think a general strike will be more effective? How so?

A 24-hour one at that, I would be interested in hearing how this would hurt the government.

I suspect they would not only ignore it, but also be pleased at saving the wage bill for the day.

 

[1%er]

Are you serious?

*goes off to find a link*

One picture I saw showed a guy with a green placard saying "hands of Libya"

 

[Kizmet]

PT, I can't really talk to you about this. Your style is offensive, unreasonable and grating. And this subject is probably a little too close to home for me to be dispassionate about.

So in that I would like to thank you for showing me my limits. Now could you please shut the fuck up about it and engage me on some other aspect of this discussion.

 

[Kizmet]

But you don't think it is right for people who care for, work with disabled people are able to strike? And that you don't want them to strike. What else are you doing but wanting to deny them the right to strike? You may not want to have it legally enforced but you have certainly made it plain you don't think it is right for them to do so. However you look at it you want to deny them the right to strike.

I think a large, co-ordinated group of people can organise themselves so that their actions can have the most impact without needing all aspects of that group to do the same thing at the same time.

But you want to make it about me denying people rights.

 

[Fedayn]

I think a large, co-ordinated group of people can organise themselves so that their actions can have the most impact without needing all aspects of that group to do the same thing at the same time.

But you want to make it about me denying people rights.

No, you made it about that be saying it wasn't right they did.

 

[lopsidedbunny]

I spotted my frist iPad being used to take photos.... I would hate to see one of them at a concert... they fucking huge...

 

[Kizmet]

Well it doesn't need the majority of the country to be behind it because if there is a general strike, ie a full withdrawal of labour by those in work, those participating will be far more powerful than the angry opinions of those opposing it in the press.

Without popular backing it would be a vote winner for the ConDems.

 

[Callie]

Re: healthcare workers and strike action - and not just healthcare workers, other emergency services and all the related roles and people.

I think many people in those professions feel highly conflicted about taking strike action. Also plenty of other people do actually think that they shouldn't have the right to strike.

I fear for the NHS, we are losing it from under our noses and we are losing the ability to compete and offer the health service the public think they want. And we have virtually no control over it.

 

[lopsidedbunny]

TUC now saying it was 500 000 people who turned up. and a bunch of right wing thugs appearing on the BBC...

 

[Kizmet]

No, you made it about that be saying it wasn't right they did.

What I said was show some solidarity and march on their behalf.

What I meant as a sign of a community pulling together to look after each other and fight together you turned into me wanting to take away someone's rights.

It could be seen like that, but you'd have to deliberately want to see it like that.

 

[Fedayn]

Without popular backing it would be a vote winner for the ConDems.

Would those not tkaing part show it has popular backing? Who decides if it's popular? The current government has below minus approval ratings... What popularity do they have?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Who said they were acab. They were targetting banks mainly so abab would be more accurate

ABAC or ABAW would be better.

 

[Random]

What I meant as a sign of a community pulling together to look after each other and fight together you turned into me wanting got take away someone's rights.

No, you started off by saying that a day of strike action hurts vulnrable people. As has already been pointed out, years of under-funded services hurt far more. Don't start finger wagging if you don't want to be challenged on it.

 

[Fedayn]

What I said was show some solidarity and march on their behalf.

What I meant as a sign of a community pulling together to look after each other and fight together you turned into me wanting got take away someone's rights.

It could be seen like that, but you'd have to deliberately want to see it like that.

And you also said it wasn't right they went on strike.

 

[Fedayn]

dp

 

[ViolentPanda]

why am I imagining Andrew Hertford shaking his haloed head at the tv while drinking a can of Directors Bitter?

Because you caught a whiff of the stench of sanctimony and beer-farts?

 

[Kizmet]

Would those not tkaing part show it has popular backing? Who decides if it's popular? The current government has below minus approval ratings... What popularity do they have?

Those are very good questions, and not easily answered. Effective handling of such a strike would be a major coup for a struggling government.

 

[Kizmet]

No, you started off by saying that a day of strike action hurts vulnrable people. As has already been pointed out, years of under-funded services hurt far more. Don't start finger wagging if you don't want to be challenged on it.

Actually I said a day of strike action would hurt some vulnerable people MORE than it would hurt the government.

If you're going to get involved, come correct.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Perhaps if you had disabled parents who rely on such services on a daily basis you wouldn't be so quick to judge others opinions as clueless.

To be fair, I'm a disabled 40-something who relies on them, and I'm fairly well aware that the way most services are set up, femergency medical services won't be affected. People like me, as well as those more severely disabled, may experience a bit of personal discomfort, but we're unlikely to experience medical problems, and if we do, we know that the emergency and medical services will still be operating an "emergencies only" service.

 

[ViolentPanda]

There are many degrees of disabled and vulnerable people. You shouldn't need it spelling out to you.

Thing is, those people who have the most severe disabilities are/will be prioritised and covered during any strike. That's what has happened previously when a strike has affected services, and it's what will happen this time/any other time. None of this (striking) is usually done in a half-arsed manner, and the unions get my respect for making sure there's adequate cover, even though assuring such cover diminishes the leverage they have on the bosses.

 

[Kizmet]

To be fair, I'm a disabled 40-something who relies on them, and I'm fairly well aware that the way most services are set up, femergency medical services won't be affected. People like me, as well as those more severely disabled, may experience a bit of personal discomfort, but we're unlikely to experience medical problems, and if we do, we know that the emergency and medical services will still be operating an "emergencies only" service.

It's that 'emergencies only' service that worries me. The main problems with medical care aren't in the ICU's, HDU's or operating theatres... it's on the wards and in the outpatients. Where inappropriate standards of care already put thousands at risk. It's in the daily services that prevent people from falling over in the shower or on the toilet or help them to eat.

These are at biggest risk from the cuts, but they are so precarious that we have to be very careful how it is dealt with.

 

[ViolentPanda]

But I do. Spell it out to me. What awful effects will a 24 hour public sector strike have on your parent(s)?

I suspect that kizmet is on about stuff like catheterisation, medication, anti-bedsore measures, supervision of feeding and the like.