Workers' Girder! Getcher Workers Girder!

[Nigel Irritable]

Ok, so Nigel's given me enough names anyway... they are all men. I suppose that's not too surprising, it's a bit disappointing.

We are talking here about the people who became leaders of small political parties in the 40s and 50s. Women were more prominent amongst Trotskyists, and amongst the far left generally, than they were on other points of the political spectrum but were still underrepresented, particularly as central leaders.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

How about a "renegades" expansion for sect leaders who crossed over to the dark side? Lyndon LaRouche, Frank Furedi...

Or sect leaders who turned their sects into proper cults, although of those (LaRouche again, Fred Newman, Marlene Dixon, Gino Parente...) only LaRouche really came out of Trotskyism. More of them were Maoists, including that fruitcake in Brixton who was arrested last year and of course Bob Avakian. Dixon could go in the "intersectional" expansion too.

 

[laptop]

Bob Avakian

Whoa. I'm having a flashback, maaan.



Jim Jones could be squeezed in the cult wing, though I'm not sure about his position on the Fourth International...

 

[JimW]

You could chuck in Chen Duxiu, one of the founders of the Chinese Communist Party, he moved towards Trotskyism after he later got expelled.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Wasn't the bloke from the Zapatistas (sub commandante Marcos or whether his name is) a trot when he first went to Chiapas?

 

[seventh bullet]

Whoa. I'm having a flashback, maaan.



Jim Jones could be squeezed in the cult wing, though I'm not sure about his position on the Fourth International...

Is the Rural People's Party still going?

Dangerous muddle-headed freaks. The only thing that seems to be coherent about them is that its members are/were involved in racist, far-right organisations.

 

[chilango]

Wasn't the bloke from the Zapatistas (sub commandante Marcos or whether his name is) a trot when he first went to Chiapas?

No. Not iirc.

He was involved in a more "Guevarist" type outfit.

He may well have expressed some sympathy for Trotskyism at some point, but trot groups are pretty invisible in Mexico.

 

[butchersapron]

More maoist-professorist.

 

[butchersapron]

Not so sure about using raya either - not a trot and not someone who can just really be used as an empty symbol by the sort of trots we're after. Let me have a think.

 

[butchersapron]

Angela Davis (symbol/not trot obv)?

 

[Idris2002]

Also Bernadette Devlin?

 

[BigTom]

Rosa Luxumberg, Clara Zetkin

Angela Davis (symbol/not trot obv)?

Also Bernadette Devlin?

Cheers - none of these are Trots (as far as I can see) so will use them (as well as Emma Goldman) if I can't find better. I like how Bernadette Devlin slapped the home secretary, need more of that in politics.

 

[BigTom]

Not so sure about using raya either - not a trot and not someone who can just really be used as an empty symbol by the sort of trots we're after. Let me have a think.

oh yeah, meant to say, Butchers has nailed it here in terms of what I'm looking for in these characters, really nicely described. I guess it means the person doesn't actually have to be a trot, as long as they are used as a symbol by certain kinds of trots.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Cheers - none of these are Trots (as far as I can see) so will use them (as well as Emma Goldman) if I can't find better. I like how Bernadette Devlin slapped the home secretary, need more of that in politics.

Luxemburg was dead before the various splits in the Communist movement that make "Trotskyism" a meaningful term. Devlin was in the orbit of the International Socialists and People's Democracy at various times, but was never an actual member of any Trotskyist group as far as I know (she was in Official Sinn Fein, the IRSP for about ten seconds and then her own Independent Socialist Party). Zetkin actually stayed in the CP and (very unusually for a prominent CP leader in the early 30s) was hostile to Stalin, but was definitely not a Trotskyist. She doesn't really fit easily into the usual categories but describing her as a Right Oppositionist is probably the least misleading. Her factional alignments were primarily determined by considerations in German politics, which can make her international stances a bit confusing.

Dunayevskaya was a Trotskyist from 1929 to 1950 or 1951, more or less, although as her career became more noteworthy she was increasingly "heterodox", and much of her prominence stems from the years after she had abandoned Trotskyism. It's not quite like describing Cornelius Castoriadis as a Trotskyist though, as unlike Castoriadis during his own Trotskyist period, she was a figure of some minor significance within the Trotskyist movement.

 

[BigTom]

Cheers - I've read a reasonable amount of marxist theory, but my historical knowledge of anything other than the 1917 revolution is pretty much zero and I've little idea about who was in what sect and the historical traditions around post-leninist stuff. I'll definitely put Luxembourg in there on that basis then.

 

[nogojones]

I suppose there's always Alexandra Kollontai if you still need to even things up a bit

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Cheers - I've read a reasonable amount of marxist theory, but my historical knowledge of anything other than the 1917 revolution is pretty much zero and I've little idea about who was in what sect and the historical traditions around post-leninist stuff. I'll definitely put Luxembourg in there on that basis then.

She makes sense on the same sort of basis as Marx, Engels, Lenin (or James Connolly).

 

[laptop]

Ah.

Could there be another extension for the Straussites (and UK equivalents) who passed through Trotskyism?

http://www.academia.edu/2049233/Neoconservatives_and_Trotskyism_

Irving Kristol
Richard Perle
Peter Hitchens
et ceteros ad nauseam

 

[SpineyNorman]

That Afghan girl (or was she Pakistani? can't remember) who got shot by the Taliban for supporting education for girls and got treated by the NHS would be good for the intersectional add on - definitely heard she's a trot.

 

[seventh bullet]

Pakistani. There's a photo of her attending an event set up by the IMT.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

A lot of these suggestions are getting quite far removed from the core concept of "organisation leaders".

 

[BigTom]

Ah.

Could there be another extension for the Straussites (and UK equivalents) who passed through Trotskyism?

http://www.academia.edu/2049233/Neoconservatives_and_Trotskyism_

Irving Kristol
Richard Perle
Peter Hitchens
et ceteros ad nauseam

Yeah, for sure.. also I think Stalinists & Maoists.

Most of the variation in the expansions will be the campaigns (trots = stop the war, save the NHS, stop the cuts, fight the fascists; anarchists = animal rights, destroy capitalism) types of events (trots = public meeting, demo, strike, general strike; anarchist = direct action, occupation, bombing campaign; liberals = petition, letter writing, voting, consumer boycott etc) and in the speakers, so the police ones will have informants, plains clothes and undercovers, and the conspiraloon pack will have people talking about flouride and 9/11 etc.. all the events for conspiraloons are going to be "youtube video" .. and I'm going to change the hijacks too, anarchist will have "smashy, smashy" and liberals "careful now" which'll have different effects. I've got quite far with this already tbh cos it's the kind of thing that's great to do for half an hour when you're really stoned, can't remember it all though and it's on my laptop downstairs.

I'm not sure how I'll do the extra characters actually as they'll need split/stick cards with them on the back of them... hmmm.. it's too obvious not to do though.

 

[BigTom]

A lot of these suggestions are getting quite far removed from the core concept of "organisation leaders".

Not necessarily organisation leaders - theorists and commonly held historically important figures too. I'm not entirely sure what I'm looking for tbh, what Butchersapron said about empty symbols does it nicely - who would they have favourable talks on at Marxism year in, year out.. preferably titled something like "what is the relevance of X's theory on Y in the 21st century". Historical people, dead, long dead preferably, reified by the trotskyite movement - or at least by the least flexibly thinking trotbot end of that movement.

Your list of suggestions was great though.

 

[equationgirl]

What about frieda kahlo, renowned Mexican artist and close friend of Trotsky and Stalin? She was an active communist for much of her later life.

 

[seventh bullet]

Hugo Blanco?

 

[Greebo]

Rosa Luxemburg?

 

[SpineyNorman]

I assume you've got Barry Mainwaring in there somewhere?

 

[Louis MacNeice]

I assume you've got Barry Mainwaring in there somewhere?

Mainwaring thought has negated Trotskyism!

Forward with the proletarian weapon of Mainwaring thought!

Comradely greetings - Louis MacNeice

 

[BigTom]

I assume you've got Barry Mainwaring in there somewhere?

I did think about the whole PD cadre, but I think for the base set I'll keep it straight - we'll wait to do a Posadist or PD expansion. I have Posadas in the list of the base set though.

Rosa Luxemburg?

Yep, she's definitely in. List at the moment is (definites are bolded):

1 - Trotsky
2 - Lenin
3 - Marx
4 - Engels
5 - Ernst Mandel
6- Rosa Luxembourg
7- Tony Cliff
8- Raya Dunayevskaya
9- Angela Davies
10- Pierre Lambert
11- David Korna (Barta)
12- Michel Pablo
13- Posadas

Ideally I'd like to swap out Pieree, David and Michel for 3 women - there's enough other connected names on this thread for me to do that, but keep suggestions coming please.

 

[Greebo]

<snip> Ideally I'd like to swap out Pieree, David and Michel for 3 women - there's enough other connected names on this thread for me to do that, but keep suggestions coming please.

Charlotte Perkins Gilman? Mary Wollstonecraft?