Why is Urban Pol full of racist threads?

[audiotech]

Quote:
Originally Posted by durruti02

"i am asking everyone this ..

if your boss plans to sack you all and replace you with low wage earners ( immigrant or other) you do NOT wait till he has done so and then say 'hey lets unite and fight' .. you fight there and then for your work .. no??????? "


MC5 replied

I once worked for an employer that actually made all it's existing workforce re-apply for their jobs. Most people were appalled by this move. Unfortunately they decided not to fight this, but chose to leave instead. The employer, now in a panic because they had a staff crisis, advertised some posts £2,000 and £3,000 above the rate they were paying previously to those employees who had left. The exercise was to try and reduce costs and instead costs increased.


that did not answewr the question did it?

I posted an example of a workplace who wholesale accepted a management diktat without a fucking whimper, never mind unite and fight and they had, as I thought at the time, good union representation within the workplace.

Of course you organise and prepare for attacks by management before they come, that's a given for any activist with nous, but if the response from others is "oh well" then what do you do?

I am a union rep at the moment (not many union members though) and I was talking to someone who, although not a union member, has become a 'communications rep' within the organisation (new legislation requires this apparently). I said what if the organisation said to you to communicate to others the possibility of a wage cut? I said I would walk away from the role and argue to fight this. They said that might have to happen and would see that as their role to carry it out.

The person concerned also raised an issue about "why the organisation is recruiting foreigners to work?" I said that because of low pay in the particular sector of work we do, the organisation has difficulty recruiting and that's why it looks elsewhere.

Now, I'm committed to fight for better pay, others (like the person mentioned) are apparently prepared to accept even lower rates!

 

[poster342002]

I posted an example of a workplace who wholesale accepted a management diktat without a fucking whimper, never mind unite and fight and they had, as I thought at the time, good union representation within the workplace.

Of course you organise and prepare for attacks by management before they come, that's a given for any activist with nous, but if the response from others is "oh well" then what do you do?

I've been banging my head against that proverbial brick wall for as long as I can remember, too. I have pretty much given up trying, now, as a result.

 

[audiotech]

Prepare for the upturn!

 

[exosculate]

I failed the 11 plus too.

You can't get more credibility than that.

 

[poster342002]

Prepare for the upturn!

Really? What upturn? That upturn that never arrives nomatter how often predicted?

And any upturn will never happen in some workplaces even if it is happening elsehwere: mine is one and Keyboard Jockey's is another.

Workplaces where just about EVERYBODY is classed as management and has the power to deprive the person below them of employment are never going to develop any kind of solidarity. Unless you count the management grades closing ranks to back each other up when one of their staff makes a formal complaint about mistreatment.

 

[mk12]

Workplaces where just about EVERYBODY is classed as management and has the power to deprive the person below them of employment are never going to develop any kind of solidarity

So what do we do in those workplaces? what should the people there do?

 

[durruti02]

I posted an example of a workplace who wholesale accepted a management diktat without a fucking whimper, never mind unite and fight and they had, as I thought at the time, good union representation within the workplace.

Of course you organise and prepare for attacks by management before they come, that's a given for any activist with nous, but if the response from others is "oh well" then what do you do?

I am a union rep at the moment (not many union members though) and I was talking to someone who, although not a union member, has become a 'communications rep' within the organisation (new legislation requires this apparently). I said what if the organisation said to you to communicate to others the possibility of a wage cut? I said I would walk away from the role and argue to fight this. They said that might have to happen and would see that as their role to carry it out.

The person concerned also raised an issue about "why the organisation is recruiting foreigners to work?" I said that because of low pay in the particular sector of work we do, the organisation has difficulty recruiting and that's why it looks elsewhere.

Now, I'm committed to fight for better pay, others (like the person mentioned) are apparently prepared to accept even lower rates!

fair play .. so just to get this straight

if your managment were planning to get rid of one OR all of you and replace those people with immigrants on inferior terms, ... you would fight this and ignore any nonsense about being against immigrants etc etc??

p.s. i also know it is hard i think though one of the reasons people have lost faith in unions is they think they will not fight things thru .. and they are NOT wrong

p.p.s and yes if they get away with it .. you recruit the newby and bid your time till you can change their conditions .. though there MAY be a case for blacking that job and worker .. depends

 

[poster342002]

So what do we do in those workplaces? what should the people there do?

Good question. I think these sort of workplaces are probably beyond help, imo.

 

[audiotech]

fair play .. so just to get this straight

if your managment were planning to get rid of one OR all of you and replace those people with immigrants on inferior terms, ... you would fight this and ignore any nonsense about being against immigrants etc etc??

The organisation I work for would not in a million years sack one, or all of the workforce and replace people with immigrants on inferior terms.

Now you'll know doubt come back with something along the lines of 'how do you know it'll not happen?" You'll just have to accept that I just know.

 

[durruti02]

The organisation I work for would not in a million years sack one, or all of the workforce and replace people with immigrants on inferior terms.

Now you'll know doubt come back with something along the lines of 'how do you know it'll not happen?" You'll just have to accept that I just know.

the question is clearly hypothetical mate ... i don't understand why it is a complicated q. for you to answer

 

[audiotech]

Suit You Sir!

the question is clearly hypothetical mate ... i don't understand why it is a complicated q. for you to answer

Starting from the premise that immigration is the problem is not one for anti-fascists to take. Starting from some ill thought through hypothesis rather than fact only confuses the issue and assists those who seek to benefit from divisions based on race.

There's no doubt that there are difficulties associated to migrant workers. The present government uses immigration to keep a lid on wages and some British workers are losing their jobs to migrant workers, employed on less money and working in poorer conditions. The answer to this is employment rights for all rather than pandering to those calling for immigration controls.

An amnesty for illegal migrants (often experiencing gross exploitation in the workplace) is also crucial. These people are already in the UK, often living in established communities. Why not a call to regularise these workers and reduce their exploitation?

One of the politicians you quote, Frank Field, has tried to address the issue (but has come to the wrong conclusions) and in so doing has become the darling of the right-wing press. I will not be following suit even if you have.

 

[durruti02]

1)Starting from the premise that immigration is the problem is not one for anti-fascists to take. Starting from some ill thought through hypothesis rather than fact only confuses the issue and assists those who seek to benefit from divisions based on race.

2)There's no doubt that there are difficulties associated to migrant workers. The present government uses immigration to keep a lid on wages and some British workers are losing their jobs to migrant workers, employed on less money and working in poorer conditions. The answer to this is employment rights for all rather than pandering to those calling for immigration controls.

3)An amnesty for illegal migrants (often experiencing gross exploitation in the workplace) is also crucial. These people are already in the UK, often living in established communities. Why not a call to regularise these workers and reduce their exploitation?

4)One of the politicians you quote, Frank Field, has tried to address the issue (but has come to the wrong conclusions) and in so doing has become the darling of the right-wing press. I will not be following suit even if you have.

ok we're getting somewhere

i agree obviously with para 2) ..entirely .. equally i agree entirley with para 3) .. but only at the same time as the para 2) stuff . para 4) i'm confused .. not sure i have ever qouted FF in the sense of supportting him .. maybe to show politicians are sayiing it is an issue ??

para 1 is interesting ... i am NOT an anti facist .. i am an anti capitalist ... to me anti facism is a BIG problem in dealing with facism .. it confuses the issue .. it makes out that facists are the problem .. Barking is a case in point .. w/c problems in barking are NOT caused by the BNP but by the state .. yet left wingers/anti facists went to barking and , practically, told people they must vote for the state !!! how ridiculous is this .. of course the bnp are scum but to oppose them with the CAUSE of the problem is doomed ..

all thru this debate i have tried to show you it is you, the anti facists, who racialise the debate ( like do the BNP ) by making out it is racist and demanding we all support anti racism anti facism .. this twin BNP/SWP strategy is driving people into the arms of the BNP

we need to take the race OUT of the immigration debate and put it where it should be .. a class issue .. anti facism keeps it racial

 

[audiotech]

ok we're getting somewhere

i agree obviously with para 2) ..entirely .. equally i agree entirley with para 3) .. but only at the same time as the para 2) stuff . para 4) i'm confused .. not sure i have ever qouted FF in the sense of supportting him .. maybe to show politicians are sayiing it is an issue ??

You were quoting Field to back-up your confused stance.

para 1 is interesting ... i am NOT an anti facist .. i am an anti capitalist ... to me anti facism is a BIG problem in dealing with facism .. it confuses the issue .. it makes out that facists are the problem .. Barking is a case in point .. w/c problems in barking are NOT caused by the BNP but by the state .. yet left wingers/anti facists went to barking and , practically, told people they must vote for the state !!! how ridiculous is this .. of course the bnp are scum but to oppose them with the CAUSE of the problem is doomed ..

It was the best strategy at that time to urge the anti BNP vote to come out and it worked in some areas. If you want to enter the politics of narnia (to quote another poster here) and leaflet calling for the downfall of capitalism now then be my guest.

all thru this debate i have tried to show you it is you, the anti facists, who racialise the debate ( like do the BNP ) by making out it is racist and demanding we all support anti racism anti facism .. this twin BNP/SWP strategy is driving people into the arms of the BNP

I don't demand anything from anyone and in which post have I called you racist? All you've done is quote a myriad of right-wing Labour politicians and Daily Mail cuttings to justify your meanderings. It is the lack of trust by voters in establishment politics that is driving people into the arns of the BNP not some small far-left group.

we need to take the race OUT of the immigration debate and put it where it should be .. a class issue .. anti facism keeps it racial

Race is firmly in the immigration debate, but it wasn't put there by anti-fascists, despite your bizarre assertion.

 

[refugee]

i live in a largely BLACK ( and unemployed ) neigbourhood .. it is THEY who are sufferring ..

Surely, by your argument, they're only in this country to benefit capitalism and should fuck off back to their land of origin where they can help everybody develop a richer economy and support their families?

 

[durruti02]

Surely, by your argument, they're only in this country to benefit capitalism and should fuck off back to their land of origin where they can help everybody develop a richer economy and support their families?

no not really .. we are all where we live fundamentally because of capitlaism .. 90% of black people here came here when capitalism was short staffed .. opposition was mainly down to racism and or fear of the unknown i think .. tbh i think the bosses should help peple relocate back to where their families live IF they want .. i even think there are people who benefitted from slavery who still need to pay ..

as i 've said many times before .. once someone is here as far as i am concerned they are part of the w/c ( whether they want to be or not ) and should join a union or yes fuck off .. i would not go to someone elses wrkplce or country and undercut them ..

you also appear to have missed the whole point of this debate .. it is about looking at the current tactics of capitalism and trying to find a why to resist it .. currently EU expansion and the use of cheap labour is key to what they are doing

and on the back of this proces the racist BNP are making hay .. the left are tied up in knots ..

do you think the solution is to all the bosses to carry on as normal?? do you think it is right immigrants are used in this way? do you think it is right families are broken up so rich scum can get richer?

 

[durruti02]

You were quoting Field to back-up your confused stance.

where?


It was the best strategy at that time to urge the anti BNP vote to come out and it worked in some areas. If you want to enter the politics of narnia (to quote another poster here) and leaflet calling for the downfall of capitalism now then be my guest.

really??? it has increased the disillusionment with politics and laid the foundations for fascism even more firmly .. and who would put out a leaflet like that not me ... do you think that is what IWCA and HI do ???? if both these groups were not organising in south hackney and islington the BNP would be .. WE not labour have been REAL anti facists ..



I don't demand anything from anyone and in which post have I called you racist? All you've done is quote a myriad of right-wing Labour politicians and Daily Mail cuttings to justify your meanderings.

as you well know there has been a constant hint that behind this debate is either racism or facism .. maybe not from you but it is there .. right wing politicians .. yep some of them also john cruddas polly toynbee and the deabte between the CBI and BNE .. also not one but TWO communist parties .. CP and CPGBML ..


It is the lack of trust by voters in establishment politics that is driving people into the arns of the BNP not some small far-left group.

well of course ..ffs do you think i do not know that? .. BUT whenever the BNP stand the liberals of the SW and their anti facist follwers ARE there to attack w/c people for even thinking of voting bnp , and TELLING them to vote NEW LABOUR .. what total bollox .. and you telling me this does not increase "lack of trust by voters " in all politics ..except the bnp .. the far left are insignificnat nationally but unfortunately not in when it comes to elections .. p.s. they are rarely actually politically ACTIVE in those areas


Race is firmly in the immigration debate, but it wasn't put there by anti-fascists, despite your bizarre assertion.

of course race is was there .. but you are not taking it out .. you continue to assert the debate is about race when it is NOT ..

 

[audiotech]

of course race is was there .. but you are not taking it out .. you continue to assert the debate is about race when it is NOT ..

It's about both race and immigration.

Was it not you who posted the article by frank Field then to bolster your view then?

really??? it has increased the disillusionment with politics and laid the foundations for fascism even more firmly .. and who would put out a leaflet like that not me ... do you think that is what IWCA and HI do ???? if both these groups were not organising in south hackney and islington the BNP would be .. WE not labour have been REAL anti facists ..

Your idea that the strategy of getting the anti-BNP vote out "..has increased the disillusionment with politics and laid the foundations for fascism even more firmly" is just absolute bonkers.

as you well know there has been a constant hint that behind this debate is either racism or facism .. maybe not from you but it is there .. right wing politicians .. yep some of them also john cruddas polly toynbee and the deabte between the CBI and BNE .. also not one but TWO communist parties .. CP and CPGBML ..

No "hint" it was pointed out by some that your stance on immigration controls was pandering to the politics of the BNP.

well of course ..ffs do you think i do not know that? .. BUT whenever the BNP stand the liberals of the SW and their anti facist follwers ARE there to attack w/c people for even thinking of voting bnp , and TELLING them to vote NEW LABOUR .. what total bollox .. and you telling me this does not increase "lack of trust by voters " in all politics ..except the bnp .. the far left are insignificnat nationally but unfortunately not in when it comes to elections .. p.s. they are rarely actually politically ACTIVE in those areas

I see you accept that it is disillusionment with establishment politics that is driving some people towards supporting the BNP. Your other claims are addressed to the SWP, so I'll leave it to any SWP members here to answer your charges.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

we need to take the race OUT of the immigration debate and put it where it should be .. a class issue .. anti facism keeps it racial

You really can't be stupid enough to believe there can be such a thing as non-racist immigration controls.

Or are you hoping that now there isn't a 'shortage' of labour that justified brining all these black people over here that they will all voluntarily repatriate themselves? Please stop pretendting this isn't about race you eejit.

 

[refugee]

do you think the solution is to all the bosses to carry on as normal??

Nobody except you is suggesting that! YOU want the state to continue supporting borders.

 

[TonkaToy]

You really can't be stupid enough to believe there can be such a thing as non-racist immigration controls.

Or are you hoping that now there isn't a 'shortage' of labour that justified brining all these black people over here that they will all voluntarily repatriate themselves? Please stop pretendting this isn't about race you eejit.

Oh please don't make me laugh. How can immigration controls be racist?

 

[exosculate]

Oh please don't make me laugh. How can immigration controls be racist?

Listening to some of the trots b*llocks makes me align by default with rightists like you.

 

[tbaldwin]

Starting from the premise that immigration is the problem is not one for anti-fascists to take. Starting from some ill thought through hypothesis rather than fact only confuses the issue and assists those who seek to benefit from divisions based on race.

.

Immigration or Economic migration is not THE problem but it is A problem.

Its a problem that so many people are forced/encouraged to leave the places they come from and travel to where the money is.
It increases inequality across the world and supporting the free movement of capital or labour is a terrible mistake for anyone who wants to see Social justice.

 

[audiotech]

Immigration or Economic migration is not THE problem but it is A problem.

Its a problem that so many people are forced/encouraged to leave the places they come from and travel to where the money is.
It increases inequality across the world and supporting the free movement of capital or labour is a terrible mistake for anyone who wants to see Social justice.

The drive for profit is the central dynamic here and low wages are part of the equasion for corporate sharks. These are the people who encourage us to see migrant workers as competitors as a way to keep us all down. Just as investment and production have open borders in a globalised world, so too should workers.

To those British workers who are at the sharp end of the housing crisis and cut-backs in public services we need to point out clearly that it is not foreign workers who've caused these problems.

 

[treelover]

It seems the ever so radical TUC supports mass migration and its opportunities for the capitalists/bosses.

http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/brendan_barber/2006/09/post_363.html

 

[treelover]

Its a very sharp end indeed, itis becoming near impossible to get decent inner city accomodation, i should know i have tried!

To those British workers who are at the sharp end of the housing crisis and cut-backs in public services we need to point out clearly that it is not foreign workers who've caused these problems.
Reply With Quote

 

[tbaldwin]

The drive for profit is the central dynamic here and low wages are part of the equasion for corporate sharks. These are the people who encourage us to see migrant workers as competitors as a way to keep us all down. Just as investment and production have open borders in a globalised world, so too should workers.

To those British workers who are at the sharp end of the housing crisis and cut-backs in public services we need to point out clearly that it is not foreign workers who've caused these problems.

Crikey......aaagh.........

Migrant workers are competing for Jobs and Housing though aernt they?

Open borders is good for people who exploit capital and labour, do you still not understand this is a class issue and you are lining up on the totally wrong side.

And no foreign workers dont cause the problem but the free movement of capital and labour does..

Are you a Socialist or a free marketer?

 

[audiotech]

Crikey......aaagh.........

Migrant workers are competing for Jobs and Housing though aernt they?

Open borders is good for people who exploit capital and labour, do you still not understand this is a class issue and you are lining up on the totally wrong side.

And no foreign workers dont cause the problem but the free movement of capital and labour does..

Are you a Socialist or a free marketer?

Some have described me as a raving commie bastard - that I can't deny.

When bosses, in their competitive world, try to use migrants as expendable cheap labour, and then try to use migrants to undermine wages, the solution is not to oppose immigration, but to stand up for the rights and dignity that every worker deserves.

 

[junius]

An interesting interview in the Weekly Wonder.

http://www.cpgb.org.uk/worker/639/poland.htm

 

[exosculate]

Some have described me as a raving commie bastard - that I can't deny.

When bosses, in their competitive world, try to use migrants as expendable cheap labour, and then try to use migrants to undermine wages, the solution is not to oppose immigration, but to stand up for the rights and dignity that every worker deserves.

Whats that noise......


Oh I think reality is shouting for you

 

[exosculate]

An interesting interview in the Weekly Wonder.

http://www.cpgb.org.uk/worker/639/poland.htm

Pie in the sky viewpoint though.