Why is Urban Pol full of racist threads?

[audiotech]

Whats that noise......


Oh I think reality is shouting for you

Typical in depth reply.

 

[durruti02]

You really can't be stupid enough to believe there can be such a thing as non-racist immigration controls.

Or are you hoping that now there isn't a 'shortage' of labour that justified brining all these black people over here that they will all voluntarily repatriate themselves? Please stop pretendting this isn't about race you eejit.

does this make any sense??

you bother to read things you will see that i am not for immigration control .. but for unions and a left that will fight for their class .. against the bosses who bring immigrnats to undercut the unions ..

race ?? you lot are so much more liberal than left that race is all you see .. class mate class is what it is about .. an assault on the w/c by neo liberal scum who USE and ABUSE immigrants to increase profit ..

in fact you are desperate for it to be about race arn't you???? that would be SOOOO much easier to deal with or rather make up slogans about

... you have become scared of the w/c .. racist nationalist dole scum that we all are ..

 

[durruti02]

It's about both race and immigration.

so what has everybody got against the poles??? i have not heard a SINGLE racist comment about poles ..

Was it not you who posted the article by frank Field then to bolster your view then?

not that i am aware of .. maybe so show politicians are starting to talk about it months ago .. he is a creep

Your idea that the strategy of getting the anti-BNP vote out "..has increased the disillusionment with politics and laid the foundations for fascism even more firmly" is just absolute bonkers.

???? i can't belive you say this .. so we all agree that New Labour are the major cause of w/c disillusionment? yes? yes we do ... so then you and the anti facists and SWP go to oldham barking leeds etc and tell people to er VOTE labour? and that does not increase disillusionment???? especially with the left???? come on ..

No "hint" it was pointed out by some that your stance on immigration controls was pandering to the politics of the BNP.

hey thats kafkaesque that who when why??? it is quite simply bullshit .. BNP are anti militant TU and racist .. i am anti racist and pro militant TU .. spot the differrence :rolleyes:

I see you accept that it is disillusionment with establishment politics that is driving some people towards supporting the BNP. Your other claims are addressed to the SWP, so I'll leave it to any SWP members here to answer your charges.

no mate addressed to 'anti facists' and liberal left like you not just the swp


p.s. you never answered the q.

what do you do when your boss decides to replace you all with immigrants?

say " hey thats cool we will let that happen then fight for wage parity" .. or oppose what you bosss is planning and help to create fighting TUs that oppose such shite and can ALSO help to get immigrants who ARE here, wage parity

 

[durruti02]

1) The drive for profit is the central dynamic here and low wages are part of the equasion for corporate sharks.

2)These are the people who encourage us to see migrant workers as competitors as a way to keep us all down.

3)Just as investment and production have open borders in a globalised world, so too should workers.

4) To those British workers who are at the sharp end of the housing crisis and cut-backs in public services we need to point out clearly that it is not foreign workers who've caused these problems.

MC .. you are close ..

1) yes spot on

2) but they are used as competitors .. and the bosses have suceeded in what the are doing .. stopping w/c/unions have ANY power by doing away with scarcity of labour .. this is where we need to be honest .. we need to accept that they are being used such BUT that we also have a common enemy .. the bosses .. if we just parrot about " all being in it together"without any recognition of the problems,people will,and are ignoring the lefts message

3) yes of course but again what does that message say on a picket line when workers are being replaced by immigrants?.. that somehow we such give up what we have for this neo liberla europe? our FIRST priority is always to build from what we have where we are from the base

4) yes agree but we NEED to point out how the bosses could NOT have pushed thru their neo liberal agenda WITHOUT immigrant labour .. only then will people listen to us about global w/c etc etc

 

[tbaldwin]

does this make any sense??

you bother to read things you will see that i am not for immigration control .. but for unions and a left that will fight for their class .. against the bosses who bring immigrnats to undercut the unions ..

: ..

But if you recognise the effects the free movement of labour has,how can you not then argue for controls? Aernt you in danger of just arguing for carrots without any sticks...In theory thats fine but in practice how would you stop the flow of economic migrants without regulations and immigration controls..

 

[audiotech]

so what has everybody got against the poles??? i have not heard a SINGLE racist comment about poles ..

I was speaking generally not specifically. It's those most visible migrants who bear the brunt of racist hostility.

???? i can't belive you say this .. so we all agree that New Labour are the major cause of w/c disillusionment? yes? yes we do ... so then you and the anti facists and SWP go to oldham barking leeds etc and tell people to er VOTE labour? and that does not increase disillusionment???? especially with the left???? come on ..

Yes to the first bit, but the anti-BNP vote is tactical consideration and not political.

BNP are anti militant TU and racist .. i am anti racist and pro militant TU .. spot the differrence

Fine.

 

[audiotech]

no mate addressed to 'anti facists' and liberal left like you not just the swp


p.s. you never answered the q.

what do you do when your boss decides to replace you all with immigrants?

say " hey thats cool we will let that happen then fight for wage parity" .. or oppose what you bosss is planning and help to create fighting TUs that oppose such shite and can ALSO help to get immigrants who ARE here, wage parity

I agree with your last points.

what do you do when your boss decides to replace you all with immigrants

I wouldn't blame said immigrants.

 

[audiotech]

2) but they are used as competitors .. and the bosses have suceeded in what the are doing .. stopping w/c/unions have ANY power by doing away with scarcity of labour .. this is where we need to be honest .. we need to accept that they are being used such BUT that we also have a common enemy .. the bosses .. if we just parrot about " all being in it together"without any recognition of the problems,people will,and are ignoring the lefts message

"all being in it together" is not something I said. Unity in action is more to the point.

3) yes of course but again what does that message say on a picket line when workers are being replaced by immigrants?.. that somehow we such give up what we have for this neo liberla europe? our FIRST priority is always to build from what we have where we are from the base

I aknowledge it's a difficult argument to be had, but I think you'll find it has some resonance.

4) yes agree but we NEED to point out how the bosses could NOT have pushed thru their neo liberal agenda WITHOUT immigrant labour .. only then will people listen to us about global w/c etc etc

I return to the point about those who encourage us to see migrant workers as competitors as a way to keep us all down. I'm not going to accept that particular agenda.

 

[treelover]

A friend of mine who works as a bus driver says many of his colleagues are considering voting BNP, if they vote that is. Imo, we have to start taking seriously again issues that affect people in their everyday lives:housing, poverty, crime, the NHS, etc, and stop this obsession with refugees, the war, imperialism, etc. they are important issues, but they are not the only ones.
A look at the Time to go Demo and meetings in Manchester, highlight this obssession, there is nothing on housing, welfare cuts, the NHS, etc, its getting fucking ridiculous...

 

[durruti02]

But if you recognise the effects the free movement of labour has,how can you not then argue for controls? Aernt you in danger of just arguing for carrots without any sticks...In theory thats fine but in practice how would you stop the flow of economic migrants without regulations and immigration controls..

2 points ..

one you do not control immigration by Immigration Controls, if, the pull is still there .. it is the pull created by scumbag tories and new labour bosses craving cheap labour, that needs to be dealt with

two .. the key to change is all about getting some sort of confidence back in workplaces and communities .. that will not be done by new state controls but by people taking action themselves


however it is likely that at some stage the unions and the centre left will be forced into a position of supporting some sort of state controls as the w/c demands some sprt of protection from the bosses .. the debate will move on then

 

[durruti02]

I was speaking generally not specifically. It's those most visible migrants who bear the brunt of racist hostility.


fair play but this is the point .. much anti- immigration was generally about race .. but particularly at this moment it is certainly not .. this has left the left confused as their trad response is redundant


Yes to the first bit, but the anti-BNP vote is tactical consideration and not political.


but it has backfired .. the left in these fucked up areas is seen as arguing for people to vote new labour and or for a perceived muslim party .. respect .. this has been disasterous
Fine.

....

 

[durruti02]

I agree with your last points.


good stuff ..we agree



I wouldn't blame said immigrants.

and neither or NEVER have i ..

 

[durruti02]

"all being in it together" is not something I said. Unity in action is more to the point.

yes .. but that means those who are there now .. and that might mean all 'english' .. it is essential that they are still supportted .. unity based on a defeated workforce will be empty


I aknowledge it's a difficult argument to be had, but I think you'll find it has some resonance.

disagree .. we have to fight to keep what we have here and now .. only confident workforces will be inclusive .. it is the history of facism that defeat and impotence leads to reaction



I return to the point about those who encourage us to see migrant workers as competitors as a way to keep us all down. I'm not going to accept that particular agenda.

i understand your fear/reluctance but the bosses ARE using immigrants as competitors. WHENEVER we can we need to stress we are all w/c .. we are all being used but there will be occassions we need to fight for what we have in the here and now

p.s. what is the differrence between opposing call centre workers all being sacked and the work being transferred to india, and an employer sacking a workforce and importing labour?

 

[durruti02]

A friend of mine who works as a bus driver says many of his colleagues are considering voting BNP, if they vote that is. Imo, we have to start taking seriously again issues that affect people in their everyday lives:housing, poverty, crime, the NHS, etc, and stop this obsession with refugees, the war, imperialism, etc. they are important issues, but they are not the only ones.
A look at the Time to go Demo and meetings in Manchester, highlight this obssession, there is nothing on housing, welfare cuts, the NHS, etc, its getting fucking ridiculous...

yep it is getting closer .. a very good mate's, partner's, brother .. (always been a bit of a lefty) now looking at the bnp .. emailing articles to my mate .. not good .. left fcked

 

[Hawkeye Pearce]

Calling for increased border controls misses the point i would say. What is needed is campaigns that increase working class organisation and the confidence of people to defend their jobs against the bosses.
What is particularly interesting is the way the media have constructed this whole debate around immigration. The S*n and others like them put out headlines screaming about immigrants bringing disease into the country and the liberal types respond with "it's good for the economy" type stories. I mean the spindependent gave over a page to digby fucking jones the other week for gods sake! Both positions articulated by the media are bullshit and need to be counterpointed by a class analysis of the situation rather than conducting the debate on the terms set by the media.

 

[Hawkeye Pearce]

yep it is getting closer .. a very good mate's, partner's, brother .. (always been a bit of a lefty) now looking at the bnp .. emailing articles to my mate .. not good .. left fcked

Well right now there is no left. Labourist socialism died as soon as kinnock took over and the sects are either too small to matter or obsessed with the war to the detriment of everything else.

 

[durruti02]

Calling for increased border controls misses the point i would say. What is needed is campaigns that increase working class organisation and the confidence of people to defend their jobs against the bosses.
What is particularly interesting is the way the media have constructed this whole debate around immigration. The S*n and others like them put out headlines screaming about immigrants bringing disease into the country and the liberal types respond with "it's good for the economy" type stories. I mean the spindependent gave over a page to digby fucking jones the other week for gods sake! Both positions articulated by the media are bullshit and need to be counterpointed by a class analysis of the situation rather than conducting the debate on the terms set by the media.

spot on .. you can imagine the scum bags of all newsapapers sat in their clubs working out who will say what ..

 

[audiotech]

p.s. what is the differrence between opposing call centre workers all being sacked and the work being transferred to india, and an employer sacking a workforce and importing labour?

Isn't the latter illegal under employment law?

 

[Troubled Waters]

It's just such a balm for my soul to hear the lefties here squealing like stuck pigs that at long last the turn of the political wheel is now slowly but inexorably bringing nationalist conservative politics back into vogue again.

Western nations have for the past 50-years been dominated by leftwing-liberal One World idealists getting their rocks off with competing with one another to see how soon and how thoroughly they can stuff up their own homeland societies with non-discriminatory immigration programmes -- all towards the result that we now have the Hague and Rotterdam groaning under a 50% Muslim population - with meanwhile Londonistan playing host to a million of these aliens encamped within its precincts.

And to add the icing to the cake we've just witnessed the UK's top Muslim leader warning the British public that there's the very real potential to turn the UK's 2-million Muslims into terrorists for jihad.

Nice work guys. Ain't leftwing idealism just great?!

 

[editor]

And to add the icing to the cake we've just witnessed the UK's top Muslim leader warning the British public that there's the very real potential to turn the UK's 2-million Muslims into terrorists for jihad.

Nice work guys. Ain't leftwing idealism just great?!

And you think that's the result of a left wing agenda being pursued by Bush/Blair et al?

 

[Troubled Waters]

It's just such a balm for my soul to hear the lefties here squealing like stuck pigs that at long last the turn of the political wheel is now slowly but inexorably bringing nationalist conservative politics back into vogue again.

Western nations have for the past 50-years been dominated by leftwing-liberal One World idealists getting their rocks off with competing with one another to see how soon and how thoroughly they can stuff up their own homeland societies with non-discriminatory immigration programmes -- all towards the result that we now have the Hague and Rotterdam groaning under a 50% Muslim population - with meanwhile Londonistan playing host to a million of these aliens encamped within its precincts.

And to add the icing to the cake we've just witnessed the UK's top Muslim leader warning the British public that there's the very real potential to turn the UK's 2-million Muslims into terrorists for jihad.

Nice work guys. Ain't leftwing idealism just great?!

 

[editor]

It's just such a balm for my soul to hear the lefties here squealing like stuck pigs that at long last the turn of the political wheel is now slowly but inexorably bringing nationalist conservative politics back into vogue again.

Do you intend repeating yourself all night at half-hourly intervals?

 

[Troubled Waters]

Where's the Delete button for this duplicate post? And is it just with me or is it the same with everyone who submits more than a one-liner that you're taken back to re-login everytime you click to submit a post... ?

 

[Troubled Waters]

And you think that's the result of a left wing agenda being pursued by Bush/Blair et al?

Surely you jest. Bush has had illegal immigrants by the 100's of 1000's pouring into the US from across its porous southern borders... with this invasion not in the least causing him the slightest embarrassment or concern for how this is creating de facto hispanic mini-states in which the English language is fast becoming redundant.

And incidentally, Bush and Blair being embarked upon a policy for removing the Police State dictatorship of Saddam Hussein in Iraq - and then substituting this genocidal regime with laws which permit for civil liberties, freedom of speech and the press - and a democratic system of government - is hardly a rightwing plot.

 

[Hawkeye Pearce]

It's just such a balm for my soul to hear the lefties here squealing like stuck pigs that at long last the turn of the political wheel is now slowly but inexorably bringing nationalist conservative politics back into vogue again.

Western nations have for the past 50-years been dominated by leftwing-liberal One World idealists getting their rocks off with competing with one another to see how soon and how thoroughly they can stuff up their own homeland societies with non-discriminatory immigration programmes -- all towards the result that we now have the Hague and Rotterdam groaning under a 50% Muslim population - with meanwhile Londonistan playing host to a million of these aliens encamped within its precincts.

And to add the icing to the cake we've just witnessed the UK's top Muslim leader warning the British public that there's the very real potential to turn the UK's 2-million Muslims into terrorists for jihad.

Nice work guys. Ain't leftwing idealism just great?!

Richard Nixon, Charles De Gaulle, Margaret Thatcher, Lyndon Johnson, Ronnie Reagan, Bush (Senior and Junior), Konrad Adenauer, Bill Clinton. The list could go on but which one of these strikes you as a left wing idealist. No left wing idealists as you put it have ever been elected to high office in the western capitalist world. The system favours the right wing and the opportunist faux left (Mitterand and co). The reason immigration is as it is is because the rich gained out of exploiting migrant labour and using immigration as a reason to drive down wages and turn us all against each other. You and your nationalist drivel play the role of bolstering the ruling class by trying to divide people when in reality we should be uniting against the ruling class who have fucked this world up so royally.

 

[118118]

... you have become scared of the w/c .. racist nationalist dole scum that we all are ..

I only think that the wc are racist nationalists when I speak to people like you, tbh. If the w/c as a whole really wanted no immigration, they would vote for just such a party. I mean, you have no hesitation to say that the wc don't want socialism, so I conclude they don't want no immigration either.

I really don't think that it can possibly be progressive to call for an end to immigration.

 

[editor]

Surely you jest. Bush has had illegal immigrants by the 100's of 1000's pouring into the US from across its porous southern borders... with this invasion not in the least causing him the slightest embarrassment or concern for how this is creating de facto hispanic mini-states in which the English language is fast becoming redundant.

So let's get this straight.

You think Bush is a left wing president, yes?

 

[Troubled Waters]

What a load of whimpering 'class-struggle' horse-shit. In my wanderings around the forum sites I've been shouted-down by an overwhelming preponderance of UK simpering leftwing-liberals all tripping out on sanctimonious moral-elitist bullshit about how Western nations should never attempt to preserve their national ethos and character by practicing any sort of selective racism or cultural and religious discrimination.

You turkeys have made your bed and now you can lie in it. Suicide bombs, race riots, mosques erected where once the English raised their families, the 'ethnic vote', chicken-livered politicians kowtowing to the minority demands of 'ethnic community' lobby groups, the UK's major-crime dominated by immigrant Third Worlders, the prisons groaning with 14% blacks when they're only 2% of the UK population, etc ad nauseum.

Besides the Dutch and the Swedes with their socialist politics of the past 50-years... never has there been a Western nation whose voters have so much deserved the demographic cess-pool and midden-heap they've created for themselves with their idealistic and trendy 'liberalism' than is that of the UK.

 

[Hawkeye Pearce]

Great to see you've taken on board all the points made so far. Please tell me why class politics are bull shit?

 

[Troubled Waters]

I'm letting you off the hook, Hawkeye. I quit. This fuckwit forum board compels me to re-login every damned time I submit a post... and then I have to go searching around on a Mystery Tour to find this thread again.

Un-effing-believable.