US torture flights landed in UK

[phildwyer]

What do you mean 'technically' mate?

Its against the law since 2004, but if you turn up at a hospital and are obviously British, and especially if you produce a British passport, they'll treat you without asking where you live. But soon you'll have to present an ID card, which will tell them where you live, so they will turn you away to die like a dog in the gutter.

 

[phildwyer]

Yes, true! You become an insider outside looking in...

And yet also an insider looking out! You learn how your country is regarded by the rest of the world. Brits in particular are usually very surprised to learn this.

 

[jæd]

Its against the law since 2004, but if you turn up at a hospital and are obviously British, and especially if you produce a British passport, they'll treat you without asking where you live. But soon you'll have to present an ID card, which will tell them where you live, so they will turn you away to die like a dog in the gutter.

UK NHS to treat UK patients...! How would've thought it...? (Out of interest, have you tried using foreign hospitals without either medical insurance or access to funds)

 

[jæd]

Expats can judge their native country far better than those who still live there. To quote the cliche, you really learn the *truth* about your native country when you live abroad.

Yep, because someone who hasn't been to a country for three years and has a jaded point of view has a really accurate view of whats going on...

Travelling does give you a good idea of how your home country is, but you need to actually be there once in a while to know whats going on...

 

[phildwyer]

UK NHS to treat UK patients...! How would've thought it...?

Glad you're happy. Quite a lot of people are already dying because of this.

 

[jæd]

Glad you're happy. Quite a lot of people are already dying because of this.

Oh... Were did I say I was happy about this...? Its a fact of life in this world and medical systems around it. Unless you have a magical army of doctors, nurses and a hospital with infinite beds there has to be someway of allocating resources.

 

[phildwyer]

Oh... Were did I say I was happy about this...? Its a fact of life. Unless you have a magical army of doctors, nurses and a hospital with infinite beds.

It is *not* a "fact of life." Until 2004, NHS treatment was available to all UK citizens wherever they lived. That has been stopped in order to save money, which will be given to very rich people in the form of tax cuts. Its a cruel, deliberate, calculated policy, not a "fact of life."

 

[jæd]

It is *not* a "fact of life." Until 2004, NHS treatment was available to all UK citizens wherever they lived. That has been stopped in order to save money, which will be given to very rich people in the form of tax cuts. Its a cruel, deliberate, calculated policy, not a "fact of life."

I meant it in regard to the rest of the world... Some kind of resource allocation system has to be used. And its called $$$ (or whatever the local currency way be) Will update post to make this clear...

 

[TeeJay]

...Many on this forum for example tell me that coz i live in thailand i am not allowed to be critical of my home country any more. Only they may have that privilege...

Noone has sought to stop you talking bollocks. It's the way you constantly bang on about what people here think, the way you label people in the UK as apathetic and cupable for everything Blair does, the way you try and tell everyone that the UK is now a police state - overblown, hyperbolic hysterial crap in other words, from someone who harranges people here for not doing enough or caring enough, but has decided to fuck off and not get involved themself.

And another example is that by british law i have been punished for daring to leave the country. I had to pay the foreigner's rate when i came back to study six years ago!

Presumably this has everything to do with not paying taxes in the UK or being a resident in the UK, rather than anyone's nationality or being a "foreigner" as you so charmingly put it.

 

[fela fan]

Noone has sought to stop you talking bollocks. It's the way you constantly bang on about what people here think, the way you label people in the UK as apathetic and cupable for everything Blair does, the way you try and tell everyone that the UK is now a police state - overblown, hyperbolic hysterial crap in other words, from someone who harranges people here for not doing enough or caring enough, but has decided to fuck off and not get involved themself.Presumably this has everything to do with not paying taxes in the UK or being a resident in the UK, rather than anyone's nationality or being a "foreigner" as you so charmingly put it.

I paid taxes and national insurance for nine years.

I never fucked off (but i absolutely understand anyone who does these days), i went for a long holiday and then simply found myself not coming back. Best decision i ever made, getting away from the likes of judgmental people such as yourself. So much negativity in britain, so much no-can-do attitude. And all the good things about britain are disparaged by british people living there. Weird.

And if you can't understand the link between blair's actions and the general public's non-actions, then there's nothing i can do to help you. When it comes to politics a large majority of the british public are apathetic. You show me how i'm wrong please. If they weren't then how would blair have gotten away with all his lies, spin, and illegal war activity? Are have you ceased to be living in a democracy? Maybe you're half way to a police state, which i've said before (note that; it's not the same as you level at me: but of course, nice to exaggerate and subjectify what i've said in order to try and make your point by rubbishing me. It fails miserably to anyone reading with a debating brain).

Your summary of what i say on these boards is unfortunately coloured by your own narrow perspective, which takes it well away from the truth. Your problem not mine.

 

[Fong]

I paid taxes and national insurance for nine years.

I never fucked off (but i absolutely understand anyone who does these days), i went for a long holiday and then simply found myself not coming back. Best decision i ever made, getting away from the likes of judgmental people such as yourself. So much negativity in britain, so much no-can-do attitude. And all the good things about britain are disparaged by british people living there. Weird.

And if you can't understand the link between blair's actions and the general public's non-actions, then there's nothing i can do to help you. When it comes to politics a large majority of the british public are apathetic. You show me how i'm wrong please. If they weren't then how would blair have gotten away with all his lies, spin, and illegal war activity? Are have you ceased to be living in a democracy? Maybe you're half way to a police state, which i've said before (note that; it's not the same as you level at me: but of course, nice to exaggerate and subjectify what i've said in order to try and make your point by rubbishing me. It fails miserably to anyone reading with a debating brain).

Your summary of what i say on these boards is unfortunately coloured by your own narrow perspective, which takes it well away from the truth. Your problem not mine.

People like Teej and Nino don't want to hear the harsh truth Fela.

They would rather live in the delusion that really the 'great' british public does care, if only they knew enough!

Somehow its better to imply they are all stupid assholes who can't be bothered to find out what is going on in their own country, rather then just being apathetic.

 

[phildwyer]

People like Teej and Nino don't want to hear the harsh truth Fela.

They would rather live in the delusion that really the 'great' british public does care, if only they knew enough!

The British public just re-elected a government that was *presently* engaged in an illegal, aggressive, imperialist war. Not even the Germans did that.

 

[jæd]

Are have you ceased to be living in a democracy? Maybe you're half way to a police state, which i've said before (note that; it's not the same as you level at me: but of course, nice to exaggerate and subjectify what i've said in order to try and make your point by rubbishing me. It fails miserably to anyone reading with a debating brain).

I probably imagined it, but I sure I voted in a General Election last year. And there was no-one forcing me to vote for Blair. Isn't that what happens in police states...?

Your summary of what i say on these boards is unfortunately coloured by your own narrow perspective, which takes it well away from the truth. Your problem not mine.

Where as someone sitting on the other side of the world has 100% accurate view...

 

[Fong]

I probably imagined it, but I sure I voted in a General Election last year. And there was no-one forcing me to vote for Blair. Isn't that what happens in police states...?

Where as someone sitting on the other side of the world has 100% accurate view...

Elections are immaterial when you know the outcome before the election starts.

Some cunt will get elected.

Whether it is a cunt in blue or a cunt in red, isn't an issue worth debating.

Being arrested for being the wrong colour, being stopped and beaten for protesting, being barred form protesting, being arrested for protesting.

These are indicative of a police state, and they ARE happening in this country.

I may sound upset, but I am not really, i am more pissed off by Newham lying to me then I am about ID cards and all that bullshit that the government is doing, cause I don't really give a shit about the rest of the country, you all deserve what you get for being mindless sheep so fuck ya, I ain't got no kids so not like I am inflicting this bullshit on them, so live with the shit you seem to have heeped upon yourselves and I hope you drown in it.

Still is a laugh debating it.

 

[fela fan]

The British public just re-elected a government that was *presently* engaged in an illegal, aggressive, imperialist war. Not even the Germans did that.

And nothing will change in britain till people realise that they must change first. For me it said all that needs to be said about the british mass when they re-elect a man who is guilty of ordering mass murder, and was in fact still in the process of that killing spree.

And now from my vantage point i see the same man removing freedoms won by these people's previous generations.

These people are not stupid, just in slumberland, put there by pap, obsession with fame, the telly, consumption culture, and technology in general. They have the real power, but they can't even see it for their primordal rush to buy new things and in their obsession with anyone with a name.

Do they ever look inwards? No, they don't have any time left after constantly looking at others and judging them.

 

[Fong]

And nothing will change in britain till people realise that they must change first. For me it said all that needs to be said about the british mass when they re-elect a man who is guilty of ordering mass murder, and was in fact still in the process of that killing spree.

And now from my vantage point i see the same man removing freedoms won by these people's previous generations.

These people are not stupid, just in slumberland, put there by pap, obsession with fame, the telly, consumption culture, and technology in general. They have the real power, but they can't even see it for their primordal rush to buy new things and in their obsession with anyone with a name.

Do they ever look inwards? No, they don't have any time left after constantly looking at others and judging them.

Their time will come, one day the government will want to bring in laws pertaining to mobile phone texting, reality TV shows and Celebrity magazines.

Then we will see the power of the people!

 

[fela fan]

People like Teej and Nino don't want to hear the harsh truth Fela.

They would rather live in the delusion that really the 'great' british public does care, if only they knew enough!

Somehow its better to imply they are all stupid assholes who can't be bothered to find out what is going on in their own country, rather then just being apathetic.

And more's the pity! And of course, in classic 'debating' style, they attack the poster, not the post.

Nice following post too, entertaining!

 

[fela fan]

Their time will come, one day the government will want to bring in laws pertaining to mobile phone texting, reality TV shows and Celebrity magazines.

Then we will see the power of the people!

But the government won't do that, they know that's their best weapon to keep the mass silent and idle and confused and content.

 

[trashpony]

And nothing will change in britain till people realise that they must change first. For me it said all that needs to be said about the british mass when they re-elect a man who is guilty of ordering mass murder, and was in fact still in the process of that killing spree.

And now from my vantage point i see the same man removing freedoms won by these people's previous generations.

These people are not stupid, just in slumberland, put there by pap, obsession with fame, the telly, consumption culture, and technology in general. They have the real power, but they can't even see it for their primordal rush to buy new things and in their obsession with anyone with a name.

Do they ever look inwards? No, they don't have any time left after constantly looking at others and judging them.

And how does leaving the country and pontificating from the other side of the world help? Does it ever occur to you that you're looking at us and judging us? No, thought not.

I used to be an expat so I know what it's like. And it does give you a unique perspective - it gives you the distance to make sweeping statements based on a snapshot of the way that the UK was last time you lived here overlaid with the gauze of the BBC and the other global news corporations.

 

[Fong]

And how does leaving the country and pontificating from the other side of the world help? Does it ever occur to you that you're looking at us and judging us? No, thought not.

I used to be an expat so I know what it's like. And it does give you a unique perspective - it gives you the distance to make sweeping statements based on a snapshot of the way that the UK was last time you lived here overlaid with the gauze of the BBC and the other global news corporations.

Again, you are not actually saying or showing that Fela is wrong, you just attacking them because they're saying it.

We all take the piss out of America something rotten, yet aren't we all in the same boat, probably worse since most of us have never lived there as citizens, never had intricate experience of the legal, medical or educational systems? It doesn't stop us 'pontificating' about it, it doesn't make us any less right about what we say either.

If you have a problem with what Fela is saying, then be concise and show where they are wrong, but attacking Fela for being an Expat despite having nothing to say about what they have actually said is kinda pointless.

I personally agree, this celebrity obsessed ipod listening txt happy society that we live in, isn't worth a pint of piss.

 

[trashpony]

I'm not saying I disagree with him, quite the contrary.

I'm simply saying that the assertion that expats have greater insight is bollocks.

And I think I'm entitled to post whatever I bleeding well fancy - since when did you become the thought police?

 

[fela fan]

I'm simply saying that the assertion that expats have greater insight is bollocks.

So then trashpony, show me where i asserted this then.

Enjoy the attempt, but it will end in tears. You are blinded by your own experiences, telling the forum you used to be an ex-pat, so you know what it's like. Fuck me, you know what it's like eh? That's neatly generalised things hasn't it. Oh wait a minute, it's me that makes 'sweeping statements', silly me, i forgot for a minute.

 

[fela fan]

And how does leaving the country and pontificating from the other side of the world help? Does it ever occur to you that you're looking at us and judging us? No, thought not.

I used to be an expat so I know what it's like. And it does give you a unique perspective - it gives you the distance to make sweeping statements based on a snapshot of the way that the UK was last time you lived here overlaid with the gauze of the BBC and the other global news corporations.

Your vision is narrow.

I make observations, you make judgments, just look at your description of my writing: 'pontificating'.

I've probably watched the telly news about a dozen times in my life in britain, and i was there for 27 years. Fucking waste of space, and total propaganda.

Dunno why i'm replying to you really, politeness i guess. Some things a briton never shrugs off, oh well.

 

[trashpony]

How is this statement an observation, not a judgement?

These people are not stupid, just in slumberland, put there by pap, obsession with fame, the telly, consumption culture, and technology in general. They have the real power, but they can't even see it for their primordal rush to buy new things and in their obsession with anyone with a name.

Do they ever look inwards? No, they don't have any time left after constantly looking at others and judging them.

And this certainly implies you have some kind of perspective that the rest of us don't have the luxury of.

And now from my vantage point ...

Of course not all expats' experiences are the same. But you and PhilDwyer who live in very different countries, with very different lives, seem to be united in feeling you have a special insight that the rest of us don't have. So aren't you two generalising?

 

[jæd]

We all take the piss out of America something rotten, yet aren't we all in the same boat, probably worse since most of us have never lived there as citizens, never had intricate experience of the legal, medical or educational systems? It doesn't stop us 'pontificating' about it, it doesn't make us any less right about what we say either.

And it doesn't make us any more right than Fela... I went to a university in the US, but I wouldn't expect, based on that, to be able to seriously comment on conditions in the US today. I can comment, based on the US media and what American friends have said. But all of this is second-hand knowledge, seeing as I've not been there for some time.

Fela is claiming he can, and that he is right...

 

[jæd]

I've probably watched the telly news about a dozen times in my life in britain, and i was there for 27 years. Fucking waste of space, and total propaganda.

So you had a balanced point of view then...?

Dunno why i'm replying to you really, politeness i guess. Some things a briton never shrugs off, oh well.

Must be a crap Firday night in Thailand...!

 

[trashpony]

Must be a crap Firday night in Thailand...!

Sod all to do there y'see

 

[nino_savatte]

I'm not saying I disagree with him, quite the contrary.

I'm simply saying that the assertion that expats have greater insight is bollocks.

And I think I'm entitled to post whatever I bleeding well fancy - since when did you become the thought police?

This is exactly the point that I've been trying to make to fela on another thread for the last couple of days. But he's got it into his head that he's got a better view of Britain than we have. It is a position of arrogance - no question about that. He says that "he knows how this country is seen around the world"...well, whoopee do! So do I...and I don't have to leave the country to understand this.

 

[trashpony]

This is exactly the point that I've been trying to make to fela on another thread for the last couple of days. But he's got it into his head that he's got a better view of Britain than we have. It is a position of arrogance - no question about that. He says that "he knows how this country is seen around the world"...well, whoopee do! So do I...and I don't have to leave the country to understand this.

I find it really quite depressing that this still seems to be a popular point of view among expats - I'd hoped that the arrogance would have lessened since I was in that position. Doesn't appear so

 

[nino_savatte]

I find it really quite depressing that this still seems to be a popular point of view among expats - I'd hoped that the arrogance would have lessened since I was in that position. Doesn't appear so

I wouldn't mind but many of these ex pats (I would include my Thatcher-loving Canadian uncle here) haven't lived here for years and their only knowledge of what is taking place within society comes from newspapers...or in the case of fela, who doesn't take the news, it is conjecture based on antipathies he formed before he left the country.