US torture flights landed in UK

[Bernie Gunther]

CIA jets suspected of flying terrorist suspects to secret prisons for torture have landed at commercial British airports and received help from UK air traffic control, the authorities have admitted for the first time.

National Air Traffic Services (Nats) confirmed that three planes with CIA tail numbers have travelled through Britain "on a number of occasions".

MPs last night seized on the letter as the first formal acknowledgement that British authorities were aware that CIA flights associated with "extraordinary rendition" have travelled through UK airspace.

They said it showed that ministers could no longer claim they had no knowledge of CIA flights that have been linked to the policy of sending terrorist suspects for interrogation in countries that carry out torture.

Independent

 

[laptop]

Well, er,no, those planespotters weren't tripping.

 

[Brixton Hatter]

quelle surprise - after all the denials, there is finally proof this is happening - but we knew already didn't we

 

[nino_savatte]

What's the government got to say about this? I can guess: "We don't comment on intelligence matters".

 

[fela fan]

What's the government got to say about this? I can guess: "We don't comment on intelligence matters".

Doesn't matter. Nobody, in the greater scheme of things, will give a stuff. This government get away with things almost daily, such is their criminality and trickery. Nobody really cares any more. They've got what they want.

Indeed, proof is that they were put back in for four more years of power.

 

[pogofish]

Independent

quelle surprise - after all the denials, there is finally proof this is happening - but we knew already didn't we

Is this news? Yonks ago & a very long time before there was any press interest, images of the planes on the ground at UK airports & some discussion of their activities were up on planespotterish sites like Airliners.net & associated discussion boards.

People here even provided links to some of them at the time.

 

[nino_savatte]

Doesn't matter. Nobody, in the greater scheme of things, will give a stuff. This government get away with things almost daily, such is their criminality and trickery. Nobody really cares any more. They've got what they want.

Indeed, proof is that they were put back in for four more years of power.

Actually, I think it does matter; a government that denies that this country is being used as a staging post for rendition flights is not only dishonest but is actually culpable of the same charges as the US. In fact, MI5 may as well be holding the electric cattle prod themselves.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Is this news? Yonks ago & a very long time before there was any press interest, images of the planes on the ground at UK airports & some discussion of their activities were up on planespotterish sites like Airliners.net & associated discussion boards.

People here even provided links to some of them at the time.

The news is that Menzies Campbell got an official to admit it via a parliamentary question. Up until now they'd been denying all knowledge of the flights.

But the admission by the civil aviation service that CIA aircraft have used UK airspace is the first admission that the authorities and ministers are aware of the flights.

Tony Blair has claimed that he has no knowledge of so-called torture flights coming in and out of the country, and has refused to hold an independent public inquiry.

 

[jæd]

Doesn't matter. Nobody, in the greater scheme of things, will give a stuff. This government get away with things almost daily, such is their criminality and trickery. Nobody really cares any more. They've got what they want.

Indeed, proof is that they were put back in for four more years of power.

Amazing how you can read the situation here so accurately. Thailand must be closer than I thought...

 

[TAE]

What the National Air Traffic Services have said is that CIA operated planes have used british air-ports. They have said nothing about whom those planes were transporting. The government will continue to deny all knowledge. If a positive proof does ever come out, the government will then say that it's now old news.

 

[fela fan]

Amazing how you can read the situation here so accurately. Thailand must be closer than I thought...

Not so amazing at all. Ever heard of the global village, and the connotations behind that term?

I am british, and lived there for a lot of years before i emigrated.

Some things remain timeless.

I also take regular trips back. I also meet plenty of british folk travelling in the town i live in. I listen to what they have to say.

There's also the internet.

I think it amazing that you think it amazing.

And in any case, you have confirmed that i have read the situation accurately, so either it's amazing and i'm clever, or it's the reasons i've given.

Care to explain further your incredulity?

[oh, and to add to that, i have friends and family in britain. I also hear what they have to say]

 

[kakuma]

run by easyjet i'd bet

 

[fela fan]

Actually, I think it does matter; a government that denies that this country is being used as a staging post for rendition flights is not only dishonest but is actually culpable of the same charges as the US. In fact, MI5 may as well be holding the electric cattle prod themselves.

Yeah, well of course it matters mate. But that wasn't the context of my post. What i was trying to say was that this goverment get away with any number of things coz people don't care about it enough.

The myriad of criminal and dishonest things our government do matter to me. But the crux of it is that they are able to continue acting in their ways. Not enough people care to call them to task. Hence it doesn't matter, coz no-one will stop them.

 

[nino_savatte]

Yeah, well of course it matters mate. But that wasn't the context of my post. What i was trying to say was that this goverment get away with any number of things coz people don't care about it enough.

The myriad of criminal and dishonest things our government do matter to me. But the crux of it is that they are able to continue acting in their ways. Not enough people care to call them to task. Hence it doesn't matter, coz no-one will stop them.

Again, I have to disagree with you when you say "people don't care about it enough". First, what do you mean by "people" and second, why have you applied such a broad brush?

I care and I know many others do too. What are we supposed to do? March down to the Palace of Westminster, invade it en masse and hang Blair and his cabinet?

It's far too easy to sit in Thailand and moan about "people" in this country. You obviously have a problem with the UK which is why you are where you are, but I am not going to be labelled according to your emotional needs. Your blanket dismissal of everyone here is appalling.

 

[fela fan]

Again, I have to disagree with you when you say "people don't care about it enough". First, what do you mean by "people" and second, why have you applied such a broad brush?

I care and I know many others do too. What are we supposed to do? March down to the Palace of Westminster, invade it en masse and hang Blair and his cabinet?

It's far too easy to sit in Thailand and moan about "people" in this country. You obviously have a problem with the UK which is why you are where you are, but I am not going to be labelled according to your emotional needs. Your blanket dismissal of everyone here is appalling.

We've been down this road before. I don't mean you, nor me, nor many posters here on urban, nor indeed probably about a million british people, bearing in mind that i can have no definitive handle on actual numbers.

But when i say people, i expect posters to understand that i mean the majority.

As for me sitting in thailand, this line of argument is tiresome. If you go by it, then you'd have to stop sitting in britain going on about america, for example. Why is it that you and others don't want me harping on negatively about britain just coz i am not physically there? Where does this bullshit come from man? How come so many british posters see fit to complain about america, yet they say i can't complain about britain coz i'm not there??

 

[nino_savatte]

We've been down this road before. I don't mean you, nor me, nor many posters here on urban, nor indeed probably about a million british people, bearing in mind that i can have no definitive handle on actual numbers.

But when i say people, i expect posters to understand that i mean the majority.

As for me sitting in thailand, this line of argument is tiresome. If you go by it, then you'd have to stop sitting in britain going on about america, for example. Why is it that you and others don't want me harping on negatively about britain just coz i am not physically there? Where does this bullshit come from man? How come so many british posters see fit to complain about america, yet they say i can't complain about britain coz i'm not there??

I really, honestly do not think the majority of British people are as unconcerned as you imagine them to be. I'm a cynic but I don't feel the need to engage in blanket condemnations.

My observations are based upon your constant pontifications on how "crap" this country is and how "we" allowed Blair to "get away with it".

 

[fela fan]

Again, I have to disagree with you when you say "people don't care about it enough". First, what do you mean by "people" and second, why have you applied such a broad brush?

I mean exactly what i say. People don't care enough. As for numbers, let's just say a fucking big load of them. They couldn't give a toss about this topic. You tell me i'm wrong, coz i ain't mate, and you know it.

If britain can be run by a war criminal and then have sufficient numbers vote him back into office, then that is an acceptance of criminality that i don't share.

One thing we seem to disagree on is the culpability of the public over their leaders' conduct. I blame them to a far greater degree than you seem to, and me being in thailand has nothing to do with the validity of my opinion.

 

[nino_savatte]

I mean exactly what i say. People don't care enough. As for numbers, let's just say a fucking big load of them. They couldn't give a toss about this topic. You tell me i'm wrong, coz i ain't mate, and you know it.

If britain can be run by a war criminal and then have sufficient numbers vote him back into office, then that is an acceptance of criminality that i don't share.

One thing we seem to disagree on is the culpability of the public over their leaders' conduct. I blame them to a far greater degree than you seem to, and me being in thailand has nothing to do with the validity of my opinion.

Once again, you are being unfair. Who are these "people" and how many are they in number? Or is it the case that you're attempting to evade the issue?

Aye, we have been over this before but I am not going to sit here and allow you to tell me that because Blair is in power that "we" all share responsibility for his behaviour.

Were all the Germans responsible for the crimes of the Nazis? No.

 

[fela fan]

I really, honestly do not think the majority of British people are as unconcerned as you imagine them to be. I'm a cynic but I don't feel the need to engage in blanket condemnations.

My observations are based upon your constant pontifications on how "crap" this country is and how "we" allowed Blair to "get away with it".

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree then.

'constant' and 'pontifications' are highly subjective views and don't add any weight towards you being right and me being wrong. Britain has serious problems and i write about them. I'm not here to say what they're good at, i just enjoy that. I'm around in this life, and i bother about my world (not my country per se) because i care about peace and justice. Where peace and justice occur then i revel in it rather than talk about it. Where it doesn't occur i complain about it.

Now, you could point me towards all the column inches in all the tabloids about this topic and that would put me in my place and add good weight towards you being right. Are the tabloids talking about this topic? If not then i'd suggest that the majority of folk are uninterested.

 

[fela fan]

Once again, you are being unfair. Who are these "people" and how many are they in number? Or is it the case that you're attempting to evade the issue?

Aye, we have been over this before but I am not going to sit here and allow you to tell me that because Blair is in power that "we" all share responsibility for his behaviour.

Were all the Germans responsible for the crimes of the Nazis? No.

Nino, read my bloody posts man! Look:

"I don't mean you, nor me, nor many posters here on urban, nor indeed probably about a million british people"

That emphatically does not include you.

 

[nino_savatte]

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree then.

'constant' and 'pontifications' are highly subjective views and don't add any weight towards you being right and me being wrong. Britain has serious problems and i write about them. I'm not here to say what they're good at, i just enjoy that. I'm around in this life, and i bother about my world (not my country per se) because i care about peace and justice. Where peace and justice occur then i revel in it rather than talk about it. Where it doesn't occur i complain about it.

Now, you could point me towards all the column inches in all the tabloids about this topic and that would put me in my place and add good weight towards you being right. Are the tabloids talking about this topic? If not then i'd suggest that the majority of folk are uninterested.

What on earth are you on about? Wtf have the tabloids got to do with this? Nothing, that's what. If you are basing your non-existent numbers on tabloid readership, you have done an even worse job than those government ministers who use specially devised statistics to support their claims.

 

[nino_savatte]

Nino, read my bloody posts man! Look:

"I don't mean you, nor me, nor many posters here on urban, nor indeed probably about a million british people"

That emphatically does not include you.

I've read them and one can only glean one thing from them: you are being rather general.

Oh, thanks for not including me but I had to fight to get that concession from you.

 

[fela fan]

Aye, we have been over this before but I am not going to sit here and allow you to tell me that because Blair is in power that "we" all share responsibility for his behaviour.

Now this is where me living abroad from my own country comes in. I get a new perspective. I see and hear about my country being talked about in the general terms in which i talk about it.

To illustrate, many americans have a hard time abroad these days since bush and since 911. Like it or not, all americans are judged based on the foreign policy actions of their leaders. It may be unfair, but it's reality.

There was a time when it paid very much not to be known to be australian in indonesia.

The british are talked about as a whole entity by folk around the world. The distinction between someone like you who speaks out about shit and those who do not speak out is not made.

As it happens, i take my role seriously and do my best to promote the good name of britain wherever it may exist. Just coz i criticize my country doesn't mean i don't hold positive views about it. I speak simply as i see things. If you don't like it, then that's unfortunately tough.

Life's a bitch and then we die...

 

[slaar]

So, basically, because people in general stereotype and generalise, that excuses your pontifications on the state of the British people? Do me a favour. It does come across as reverse snobbery a lot of the time fela, it really does.

 

[fela fan]

What on earth are you on about? Wtf have the tabloids got to do with this? Nothing, that's what. If you are basing your non-existent numbers on tabloid readership, you have done an even worse job than those government ministers who use specially devised statistics to support their claims.

I argue from my context in life. And that is that if something is not up for discussion in the tabloids, then to all intents and purposes it's not on the agenda of the majority of british people.

I don't have non-existent numbers. I advanced the guestimate of one million people who care about such things as the topic of this thread. I also overtly expressed limitations on that figure.

 

[jæd]

Care to explain further your incredulity?

Nice to see that your time in Thailand hasn't affected your ability to detect sarcasm...

 

[jæd]

Now this is where me living abroad from my own country comes in. I get a new perspective. I see and hear about my country being talked about in the general terms in which i talk about it.

Or rather, you see what your jaded exp-pat eye's show you and you read what you want, as long as it confirms and justifies running away to Thailand.

If you really cared about Britain you'd be here doing something about it.

 

[fela fan]

So, basically, because people in general stereotype and generalise, that excuses your pontifications on the state of the British people? Do me a favour. It does come across as reverse snobbery a lot of the time fela, it really does.

Fair enough slaar. Everyone is entitled to their reactions, and whether they match my intentions is really pretty irrelevant. I personally don't give a flying monkeys. I'm here to voice my voice and folk can do whatever they want to with what they read from me. I really really don't give a fuck. In fact i am just a nobody that nobody knows. I am totally insignificant. What is significant is what i say. It may be completely wrong, but it's the message that counts, not the messenger.

People get so hung up about posters instead of concentrating on what they're saying. I see it in politics, i see it in the media, and i see it on urban. The thing for me to try and work out is if this a human trait, or a british trait. It sure is the latter, whether it extends to others is for another day.

 

[fela fan]

Or rather, you see what your jaded exp-pat eye's show you and you read what you want, as long as it confirms and justifies running away to Thailand.

If you really cared about Britain you'd be here doing something about it.

No, wrong. That is not my view, it is your misperception of what my view is. You are judging me on what i say. Poor mistake.

I'm not jaded, nor am i an ex-pat. So wrong on both counts, but no probs, it's your right to be wrong.

Run away to thailand? You poor defensive idiot. Why the fuck should i come back to britain when i'm having a fucking great time where i'm living? Where is my responsibility to a country that is fucking itself up? I'm responsible to just one person, and that's me.

Yet another poor deluded soul who reckons that coz i'm not there i'm not allowed to criticize the country.

I do hope you don't criticize america or any other country, coz if you do you'd be a class A hypocrite.

 

[London_Calling]

Isn’t the incredulity the preserve of some on the liberal left who haven’t quite accepted that such things as rendition don’t matter in a 21st century free market economy?

What we now know – as fact and since Blair – is that you can wage war on entirely bogus pretexts, and while that war is still ongoing and tens of thousands people are dying, the British people will re-elect you. Things that flow from that – like rendition – are merely incidental.

So we can now, perhaps for the first time, see just how much people have come to care about work/the economy, about schools and about the NHS, above everything else – and as long as those things are fine, the Government can do pretty well as it likes.

That is who ‘we’ are, the people, the consumers, of the UK free market democracy. Politicians may make noises and pretence to care, but they know that making a meal of this has only short-term point-scoring value.

Consume, and be happy.