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US election 2020 thread

andysays said:
The senators don't need to come up with any arguments at all, they can (and many of them will) simply vote for or against conviction based on crude political calculation.

For all the understandable glee with which many are anticipating the ignominious end of Trump, let's not make the mistake of thinking that this is all some sort of objective legal process which will be decided simply by facts and legal arguments.

Whether or not Trump is convicted will depend, ultimately, on whether a sufficient number of senators decide it's in their political interests for him to be convicted, nothing more than that.
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This. The breadth of speculation about the ultimate outcome gives you a sense of how random/political the whole thing is. Whilst the last few days have all been about impeachment and even criminal liability for trump and those around him, I heard some commentator today speculating about biden pardoning him - but only if trump showed 'remorse'. This level of subjectivity and politicking was of course in play when nixon got pardoned, having committed fairly clear criminal offences.
 
yeah that whole sabotaging of panic buttons thing smells way off and very conspiracy-y but in this case given the likely perpetrators and the number of actual republican party members among the Qrowd that invaded the Capitol... not beyond the realms of credibility. but that's really dark if it's true. the erosion of the fabric of trust in the media means I wouldn't be surprised if it were revealed to be fake news. that's how outlandish it is.
 
Flavour said:
yeah that whole sabotaging of panic buttons thing smells way off and very conspiracy-y but in this case given the likely perpetrators and the number of actual republican party members among the Qrowd that invaded the Capitol... not beyond the realms of credibility. but that's really dark if it's true. the erosion of the fabric of trust in the media means I wouldn't be surprised if it were revealed to be fake news. that's how outlandish it is.
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OTOH, some of the Rep nut jobs are so thick...maybe...
 
Yossarian said:
According to Reuters, Trump is still planning to have Giuliani involved in his impeachment defense, so we may get to enjoy the sight of Rudy Giuliani sweating and ranting about My Cousin Vinny in front of the Senate as various parts of him leak and fall off, before Trump stiffs him for the legal bill.
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But according to the Washington Post, via the Graun,

www.theguardian.com

Trump 'refusing to pay' Rudy Giuliani's legal fees after falling out

President said to be offended by personal lawyer’s demand for a reported $20,000 a day
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com

Hahahahahaha.

According to the Washington Post, relations between Trump and Giuliani have dramatically cooled. Trump has instructed his aides not to pay Giuliani’s outstanding fees. The president is reportedly offended by Giuliani’s demand for $20,000 a day – a figure the lawyer denies, but which is apparently in writing. White House officials have even been told not to put through any of Giuliani’s calls.

Commenting on the report, Ken Frydman, who worked as Giuliani’s press secretary in the 1990s, said: “Lay down with dogs. Wake up with fleas and without $20,000 a day”.
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Flavour said:
yeah that whole sabotaging of panic buttons thing smells way off and very conspiracy-y but in this case given the likely perpetrators and the number of actual republican party members among the Qrowd that invaded the Capitol... not beyond the realms of credibility. but that's really dark if it's true. the erosion of the fabric of trust in the media means I wouldn't be surprised if it were revealed to be fake news. that's how outlandish it is.
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There's some rational explanations for why the buttons didn't work. It could be a maintenance issue, although I'd still suspect that. It could also be that they pressed the button and no one came and the staff assumed the button had been disabled when security was just overwhelmed.

My panic button story:

I used to work at a large non-profit running events. Before an event, I was training a new kid and I hadn't showed him the panic button yet. There's all kinds of buttons to show a new hire--ones that raise curtains, release a back door, change security camera views, etc. The kid found the panic button and decided to see what it would do..... "This button doesn't do anything", he said. I told him that maybe he should put his hands on the desk and keep them in view. About then the cops showed up, guns drawn. :facepalm::D
 
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Flavour said:
yeah that whole sabotaging of panic buttons thing smells way off and very conspiracy-y but in this case given the likely perpetrators and the number of actual republican party members among the Qrowd that invaded the Capitol... not beyond the realms of credibility. but that's really dark if it's true. the erosion of the fabric of trust in the media means I wouldn't be surprised if it were revealed to be fake news. that's how outlandish it is.
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At the risk of fuelling the fire, I was very surprised to hear Ocasio-Cortez outright say on her Instagram video that, when hiding, “there were QAnon and white-supremacist sympathizers and, frankly, white-supremacist members of Congress in that extraction point who I know and who I have felt would disclose my location and would create opportunities to allow me to be hurt, kidnapped, et cetera.”

Obviously seizing opportunity is different from planned sabotage, but it is very concerning, to put it mildly.
 
Lord Camomile said:
At the risk of fuelling the fire, I was very surprised to hear Ocasio-Cortez outright say on her Instagram video that, when hiding, “there were QAnon and white-supremacist sympathizers and, frankly, white-supremacist members of Congress in that extraction point who I know and who I have felt would disclose my location and would create opportunities to allow me to be hurt, kidnapped, et cetera.”

Obviously seizing opportunity is different from planned sabotage, but it is very concerning, to put it mildly.
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She hinted at some stuff that has yet to come out for security reasons, saying she feared for her life in a very specific way, from which I’m inferring there was a possible direct confrontation with the invading mob
 
a_chap said:
What's even more alarming is that they were trying to secure the entrance using, er... water jugs.
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Yuwipi Woman said:
I think they meant something more like this:

1610626344223-png.248862
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I regret cancelling my regular donations to the charity "Help Americans learn proper English".

They clearly need more funding.
 
Orang Utan said:
She hinted at some stuff that has yet to come out for security reasons, saying she feared for her life in a very specific way, from which I’m inferring there was a possible direct confrontation with the invading mob
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I haven't really followed the details and was under the impression that everyone was off the House floor before any of the mob got in, but you may well be right and could have happened off the House floor, too.

I should probably read a bit more about what actually happened, really :facepalm:
 
Wilf said:
This. The breadth of speculation about the ultimate outcome gives you a sense of how random/political the whole thing is. Whilst the last few days have all been about impeachment and even criminal liability for trump and those around him, I heard some commentator today speculating about biden pardoning him - but only if trump showed 'remorse'. This level of subjectivity and politicking was of course in play when nixon got pardoned, having committed fairly clear criminal offences.
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Back in like November/December I remember hearing some reasonably plausible and informed-sounding speculation by people who reckoned that the point of kicking up the whole "stop the steal" movement wasn't because he thought there was any way of overturning the election, it was much more about getting him into a better position with regards to any potential post-presidency criminal proceedings, on the grounds that prosecutors would feel more able to move against him if he was weak, isolated, defeated, etc, and they'd be much more likely to decide that any prosecution was not in the public interest if there was a chance it'd lead to widespread public unrest. If that was the plan all along, I think he's fucked it up a bit.
 
I'm seriously wondering if they would have gone for the impeachment had he not been barred from Twitter et al. Otherwise he'd be able to scream UNFAIR! CORRUPT! FIX! everywhere and rile up his supporters.

How they doing without him, by the way.
 
Cloo said:
I'm seriously wondering if they would have gone for the impeachment had he not been barred from Twitter et al. Otherwise he'd be able to scream UNFAIR! CORRUPT! FIX! everywhere and rile up his supporters.

How they doing without him, by the way.
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I was wondering in sort of the opposite direction and if the ban from twitter came at just the right time to take the wind out of the impeachment sails. Once his Twitter is shut off there is less opportunity for him to make it even worse for himself with "intemperate remarks" giving the whole scenario some time to cool down and more room for the GOP wankers to wriggle off voting for impeachment. The few that were anyway.

(Please note I do not believe in any way that the above is engineered and is just down to "events dear boy, events".)

I was thinking that after his, almost normal, video last night. All seemed a bit civilised and have they (him and whoever is still in the bunker) seen a potential route out of it all?

eta: for clarity, I'm talking about the second half of this impeachment
 
Cloo said:
I'm seriously wondering if they would have gone for the impeachment had he not been barred from Twitter et al. Otherwise he'd be able to scream UNFAIR! CORRUPT! FIX! everywhere and rile up his supporters.

How they doing without him, by the way.
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I have little doubt they would still have done it. If Trump had continued railing against the result it might even have made more Republicans vote to impeach.
 
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