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US election 2020 thread

Just 'doing my own research' on this vital issue

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andysays said:
The senators don't need to come up with any arguments at all, they can (and many of them will) simply vote for or against conviction based on crude political calculation.

For all the understandable glee with which many are anticipating the ignominious end of Trump, let's not make the mistake of thinking that this is all some sort of objective legal process which will be decided simply by facts and legal arguments.

Whether or not Trump is convicted will depend, ultimately, on whether a sufficient number of senators decide it's in their political interests for him to be convicted, nothing more than that.
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Of course. Doesn't mean they don't have to produce reasons and justification. The Republicans opposing yesterday produced all kinds of reasons they didn't actually believe themselves.

Not so dissimilar to the supreme court. They vote very largely according to their political persuasion but they have to provide a legal argument nonetheless.
 
Some entertaining stuff in this Washington Post story
Trump is isolated and angry at aides for failing to defend him as he is impeached again - The Washington Post (paywalled so archived albeit not very well)

Trump has instructed aides not to pay Giuliani’s legal fees, two officials said, and has demanded that he personally approve any reimbursements for the expenses Giuliani incurred while traveling on the president’s behalf to challenge election results in key states. They said Trump has privately expressed concern with some of Giuliani’s moves and did not appreciate a demand from Giuliani for $20,000 a day in fees for his work attempting to overturn the election.
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bimble said:
Guardian this morning is a bit wtf with their offhand dramatic characterisation here
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Thats just :facepalm: really, its not an opinion piece its supposed to be just the key facts about yesterdays impeachment.
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I think more outlets should label the QAnon movement for what it is - the FBI declared QAnon to be a domestic terror threat back in 2019 and its followers have carried out multiple killings, kidnapping etc. since then, they'd definitely be getting called a terrorist movement if they were Muslims.
 
Lurdan said:
Some entertaining stuff in this Washington Post story
Trump is isolated and angry at aides for failing to defend him as he is impeached again - The Washington Post (paywalled so archived albeit not very well)
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According to Reuters, Trump is still planning to have Giuliani involved in his impeachment defense, so we may get to enjoy the sight of Rudy Giuliani sweating and ranting about My Cousin Vinny in front of the Senate as various parts of him leak and fall off, before Trump stiffs him for the legal bill.
 
strung out said:
They can hold an additional vote after conviction which bars him from holding office again. That only needs a simple majority to pass.
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moochedit said:
It won't remove him before his term ends but it would prevent him running again in 2024 as once he is convicted they can then vote on barring him.

If they fail to do it and he runs in 2024 and is elected he could only do 1 more 4 year term though as 2 terms is the max allowed.
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Ta very much both of you, appreciated.
 
Yossarian said:
I think more outlets should label the QAnon movement for what it is - the FBI declared QAnon to be a domestic terror threat back in 2019 and its followers have carried out multiple killings, kidnapping etc. since then, they'd definitely be getting called a terrorist movement if they were Muslims.
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There is a problem with the First Amendment, a former FBI officer was saying earlier, that using information taken from any social media that involved an American citizen, before any crime committed could lead to a substantial jail term for the officers involved in reporting any information.
Surely this adherence to some two hundred plus year rule book needs modifications in the time of domestic terrorists?
 
I imagine that 8kun post is almost certainly genuine - it is, as I understand it (disclaimer: I am not an 8kun poster!) a totally open and anonymous board so pretty much anyone can post anything there. So no need to fake posts, but also there's no guarantee of them indicating anything substantial either.

Anyway, new Three Way Fight analysis just dropped. Not that much new in it, but worth a look: Insurgent Movement, Government Complicity, or Both?

We do know there was clear tactical leadership on the part of the movement to enter the Capitol and stop the counting of the votes on Wednesday, but not much beyond that. Some wanted to critique the powers that be, some wanted to stop a so-called stolen election, some wanted to restore the Confederacy, some wanted Pence’s head, and some wanted to smear shit on the walls. This lack of cohesion could tear the movement apart when there is no one person for them to unite behind. They are also already facing sharp repression with arrests as far away as Arizona. Few movements can withstand the kind of repression they are about to face, not to mention the likelihood that the movement is already widely infiltrated by state forces. Many new so-called movement leaders will eventually be exposed as undercover state operatives. Either way, under the banner of “Stop the Steal,” right wing forces will be claiming victory for years.

We are grappling with what the three way fight looks like in action in this moment. We think we should be developing a political pole that opposes insurgent and government-backed far right forces, while also reinforcing movements against the police like those that took off across the country over the summer. We need an antifascism that doesn’t ultimately back up the state on the one hand or ignore the right altogether in hopes that the state will simply smash the right on the other. While we might not yet have the capacity as a movement to really do both, it is imperative to understand that one without the other is fatal.
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Sprocket. said:
There is a problem with the First Amendment, a former FBI officer was saying earlier, that using information taken from any social media that involved an American citizen, before any crime committed could lead to a substantial jail term for the officers involved in reporting any information.
Surely this adherence to some two hundred plus year rule book needs modifications in the time of domestic terrorists?
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I think that's almost certainly the FBI officer bullshitting in the hopes of blagging even more powers. Loren Reed is currently facing a ten-year stretch for "Threats to Damage and Destroy a Building by Means of Fire" based on comments made in a private facebook chat. I do not encourage anyone to test this out, but I would guess that any US citizen posting "I proper love owt like ISIS me" or similar on social media would be quite likely to find themselves in legal trouble as well.
 
hitmouse said:
I imagine that 8kun post is almost certainly genuine - it is, as I understand it (disclaimer: I am not an 8kun poster!) a totally open and anonymous board so pretty much anyone can post anything there. So no need to fake posts, but also there's no guarantee of them indicating anything substantial either.

Anyway, new Three Way Fight analysis just dropped. Not that much new in it, but worth a look: Insurgent Movement, Government Complicity, or Both?
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I think it was on the Qanon anonymous podcast that someone said "the far right are riding the loons into battle". And into power?
 
hitmouse said:
I think that's almost certainly the FBI officer bullshitting in the hopes of blagging even more powers. Loren Reed is currently facing a ten-year stretch for "Threats to Damage and Destroy a Building by Means of Fire" based on comments made in a private facebook chat. I do not encourage anyone to test this out, but I would guess that any US citizen posting "I proper love owt like ISIS me" or similar on social media would be quite likely to find themselves in legal trouble as well.
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He was the field officer in charge of the LA riots. They were snooping on locals trying to determine the next points of conflict. He works for a newspaper now as a security consultant. I’ll try and find his details. He was working alongside the DA from LA, both expected ending up as cell mates.
 
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