US election 2020 thread

[brogdale]

Quality stuff, but you haven't got a like from the Donnie, have you?

 

[brogdale]

Have we had this yet?

Skinny tree.

 

[Ted Striker]

Shit was smeared

 

[brogdale]

Shit was smeared

appropriately enough

 

[danny la rouge]

Shit was smeared

It wasn't a protest. It's just none of the toilets had a picture with a horned fleacey hat, so they didn't know where to go.

 

[two sheds]

No chance of finding out who that was then

 

[Wilf]

Another good piece from Seymour, this time talking about the influence of social media etc on the rioters

I think that's a tad overblown, even if intentionally so. However I certainly agree with the final paragraph.

I wonder if there's a moment for urban to reflect here too? 4 years ago, a group of liberal left posters on here were calling trump and the forces around him 'fascist'. A lot of others, me included, pushed back, largely with a view to saying that view of trump was tied up with a pro-clinton liberal fantasy. In turn, that trump's victory was about places and working class voters abandoned by the democrats/liberal establishment. I'm not sure that captures what that long running discussion was about very well, but you'll all remember it. Fwiw, I'd stick with the kind of things I said back then, that a victory for clinton would have been no victory, just another kind of failure. However, the point I'm getting to is that we have ended up invoking the language of fascism and coups.

I do agree with Smokeandsteam about the way to conceptualise these events and the need to step outside of liberal assumptions and hysteria. So, I'm not really sure where I'm going with this, maybe just a sense that we have come full circle.

 

[Smangus]

Dress like a bison, behave like a bison.

 

[2hats]

Shit was smeared

Accidental taser discharge? Or prepping the place so the Donster felt at home?

 

[danny la rouge]

Dress like a bison, behave like a bison.

What's the difference between a buffalo and a bison?

 

[two sheds]

you can't wash your fice in a buffalo?

 

[brogdale]

Dress like a bison, behave like a bison.

chewbacca bikini

 

[bimble]

This is quite a thing.

Some among America's military allies believe Trump deliberately attempted a coup and may have had help from federal law-enforcement officials

The big unanswered question: Why were so few law-enforcement agents at the Capitol when demonstrations like that are usually heavily policed?

www.businessinsider.com

Whether true or not, whether their suspicions will be shown to be correct or not, the fact that this is being seriously talked about as a coup attempt by people like these would suggest he should probably focus all his energies on the self pardon, no more golf just pardoning.

 

[teuchter]

Have we had this yet?

One of the comments on twitter



My instinct is to read this as sarcasm/satire but I guess it's the USA so it's not?

 

[hitmouse]

I do agree with Smokeandsteam about the way to conceptualise these events and the need to step outside of liberal assumptions and hysteria. So, I'm not really sure where I'm going with this, maybe just a sense that we have come full circle.

I posted this a few pages back, but it's a fast-moving thread so might be worth sharing again for anyone who's missed it, since it's good (imo) analysis from people who have put a lot of effort into monitoring and thinking about this crowd: Broken windows fascism

In broader terms, Trump’s insistent denial of the November election results has spurred a massive political shift within the U.S. right, as millions of people have moved—at least temporarily—from system-loyalty into system-opposition, as symbolized by Proud Boys stomping on a Thin Blue Line flag. We should expect this oppositional right to remain active and violent long after the current fight over the presidency has died down, as Natasha Lennard argued yesterday. And as Robert Evans documents, the oppositional right is a meeting place where different rightist currents and ideologies—such as neonazism and QAnon—converge and interact. It remains to be seen how unified or well organized the oppositional right will be, what kind of strategies and tactics they will use, and whether or not Trump himself will continue to play an active role.

3. The attack on the U.S. Capitol is, as many have described it, an attempted coup. It dramatizes Donald Trump’s authoritarianism, demagoguery, and repudiation of the electoral system that put him in the White House, but it also highlights one of the key limitations that separated the Trump administration from fascism. Fascism requires an independent mass organization in order to carry out its attack on the established political order. Trump has never tried to build such an organization. He has skillfully used social media and rallies to mobilize supporters, but organizationally he has relied on existing institutions, above all the Republican Party, which is part of why his administration was a coalition between America Firsters and conventional conservatives of various kinds. Now that coalition is falling apart. And Trump’s control over the federal security apparatus also proved to be quite limited. He could mobilize Homeland Security agents and U.S. Marshals to crack down on Black Lives Matter protesters last summer, but he failed to deploy any federal agents to help him overturn the results of the 2020 election. Today's mob of Trump supporters never had a chance of seizing power, but they did bring Congress to a complete standstill for hours. With better organization and leadership, the movement they represent could quickly turn into something far more dangerous.

4. A question for the coming months and years is: to what extent will the state repressive apparatus be used to crack down on the oppositional right? Certainly, cops aren’t likely to go after MAGA activists and Proud Boys the way they go after Black Lives Matter and antifa, but there’s a long history of federal security forces targeting far rightists, especially through covert operations. Joe Biden likes to talk about unity, but it’s not hard to imagine his administration reviving and expanding FBI and Homeland Security capabilities for tracking white supremacists and other far rightists. It’s also not hard to imagine some conventional conservatives actively supporting this effort. Let’s remember that the federal government’s most serious and systematic effort to crack down on oppositional rightists in the past 40 years—from The Order to the Lyndon LaRouche network—took place under Ronald Reagan. And let’s remember, too, that in the hands of the capitalist state, antifascism can be a powerful rationale for building the repressive apparatus—which ends up getting used mainly against oppressed and exploited groups. Even when the cops and the Klan don’t go hand in hand, neither one is our friend.

5. Instead of looking to the state to bring things under control, there's an urgent need for broad-based militant action on two fronts: to combat both the openly supremacist forces of the oppositional right and the less blatant but still deadly systems of established privilege and power. The past four years have been nightmarish in lots of ways, but they've also been a time of dynamic liberatory activism on a large scale. There are a lot of powerful examples of militant, creative organizing we can look to for lessons and inspiration.

 

[two sheds]

Donald Trump struck an unapologetic tone for a riot at the Capitol he fomented, using a Friday morning tweet to call his loyalists “great American Patriots” and declaring they “will not be disrespected” even after some of them ransacked the building and five people died.

Nice take on Trump's American "Patriots" there (Independent).

 

[ska invita]

I think that's a tad overblown, even if intentionally so. However I certainly agree with the final paragraph.

I wonder if there's a moment for urban to reflect here too? 4 years ago, a group of liberal left posters on here were calling trump and the forces around him 'fascist'. A lot of others, me included, pushed back, largely with a view to saying that view of trump was tied up with a pro-clinton liberal fantasy. In turn, that trump's victory was about places and working class voters abandoned by the democrats/liberal establishment. I'm not sure that captures what that long running discussion was about very well, but you'll all remember it. Fwiw, I'd stick with the kind of things I said back then, that a victory for clinton would have been no victory, just another kind of failure. However, the point I'm getting to is that we have ended up invoking the language of fascism and coups.

I do agree with Smokeandsteam about the way to conceptualise these events and the need to step outside of liberal assumptions and hysteria. So, I'm not really sure where I'm going with this, maybe just a sense that we have come full circle.

What did you find overblown?

Oh and it's not just "liberals" who saw a fascistic creep

 

[cupid_stunt]

Toys, pram, etc., but hardly surprising.

 

[bimble]

I’d appreciate if someone could spell out why they think the word fascist is not appropriate for trump.

 

[killer b]

I think that's a tad overblown, even if intentionally so. However I certainly agree with the final paragraph.

I wonder if there's a moment for urban to reflect here too? 4 years ago, a group of liberal left posters on here were calling trump and the forces around him 'fascist'. A lot of others, me included, pushed back, largely with a view to saying that view of trump was tied up with a pro-clinton liberal fantasy. In turn, that trump's victory was about places and working class voters abandoned by the democrats/liberal establishment. I'm not sure that captures what that long running discussion was about very well, but you'll all remember it. Fwiw, I'd stick with the kind of things I said back then, that a victory for clinton would have been no victory, just another kind of failure. However, the point I'm getting to is that we have ended up invoking the language of fascism and coups.

I do agree with Smokeandsteam about the way to conceptualise these events and the need to step outside of liberal assumptions and hysteria. So, I'm not really sure where I'm going with this, maybe just a sense that we have come full circle.

Is there much liberal assumptions and hysteria going on here? Trumpism is about working class voters abandoned by the democrats & liberal establishment, but it's also about violent far-right radicals. While there's some overlap, these are really two separate groups.

Observe the people who've been identified so far from yesterday - the woman who died was a business owner. There's lawyers, ex-cops, the son of a NY State Supreme Court judge, a real estate agent, a teacher, a lieutenant sheriff, various small time politicians. One woman flew in on a private jet. The podium thief is married to a doctor. When these people are identified and their personal photos from facebook etc are shared, it's inevitably holding automatic weapons which cost many thousands of pounds. The people involved in the violence yesterday are not, on the whole, poor and desperate people.

I've seen people try to dismiss Trump's working class constituency because of the relative wealth of his radical far right constituency, and I definitely don't want to do that - but I also don't think it's sensible to lump these guys in with them.

 

[danny la rouge]

 

[Wilf]

Presumably Pence is just going to sit it out till inauguration day. He seems to be blanking Pelosi and other Dem leaders - literally, in that I heard he kept them waiting for 45 minutes and didn't come to the phone. He's the only one who could get trump out and there's way too much risk to him if he does. He's no room to manoeuvre, so he'll do exactly that, nothing. All the stuff about another impeachment is pure fantasy unless the Dems think the symbolism is worth it. Heard today that never mind the Senate hurdle of 2/3, the Senate isn't actually sitting.

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

Presumably Pence is just going to sit it out till inauguration day. He seems to be blanking Pelosi and other Dem leaders - literally, in that I heard he kept them waiting for 45 minutes and didn't come to the phone. He's the only one who could get trump out and there's way too much risk to him if he does. He's no room to manoeuvre, so he'll do exactly that, nothing. All the stuff about another impeachment is pure fantasy unless the Dems think the symbolism is worth it. Heard today that never mind the Senate hurdle of 2/3, the Senate isn't actually sitting.

I'd assume the message he's put out and a promise to basically behave himself is the price for taking that stuff off the table.

 

[hitmouse]

I’d appreciate if someone could spell out why they think the word fascist is not appropriate for trump.

I think it all depends on the argument that's being made and what point the word "fascist" is being deployed for: as an individual, I don't think it's a problem to say he has fascistic ambitions or that he represents the more fascistic wing of the Republicans. I don't think it would make sense to describe the Republicans as a fascist party, because fascist organisations have strong discipline and the Repubs clearly don't, and I definitely don't think it would be correct to say that the US has become a fascist state.
Fwiw, if anyone wants to go back and revisit some old arguments about Trump and fascism, here's some Matthew Lyons from 2015-6, with articles that link to other bits of the debate from around then:

On Trump, fascism, and stale social science - Matthew Lyons

Donald Trump's rise as a candidate for the Republican presidential nomination set off a flurry of articles labeling him a fascist. These pieces -- which have appeared on sites as varied as Newsweek, Common Dreams, and CounterPunch -- are misguided. Calling Trump a fascist promotes a distorted...

libcom.org

Trump's impact: a fascist upsurge is just one of the dangers - Matthew Lyons

An article by Matthew Lyons that considers some of the discussion happening on the far right, far left and mainstream media on whether Donald Trump is a fascist.

libcom.org

I think Trump has definitely shifted further in a fascist direction in recent months, but again, he has not been successful at taking the state with him.

 

[fucthest8]

Somebody please stop me arguing with Americans on youtube about "being a member of Antifa" "if you ask the membership of Antifa" "Antifa simply want a different version of totalitarianism" ... so much dumb.

Anyway, this is fun, broadly, no? Can't wait for the next season of American Democracy, how are they going to top this?

 

[imposs1904]

Somebody please stop me arguing with Americans on youtube about "being a member of Antifa" "if you ask the membership of Antifa" "Antifa simply want a different version of totalitarianism" ... so much dumb.

Anyway, this is fun, broadly, no? Can't wait for the next season of American Democracy, how are they going to top this?

I suggest a reboot of The Apprentice on NBC with Trump choosing the Republican Presidential candidate for 2024.

 

[Raheem]

They'll probably do one of those episodes that doesn't do anything to advance the story, like the one with the fly in Breaking Bad or the one in the Handmaid's Tale about singing along to Belinda Carlisle.

 

[fucthest8]

I suggest a reboot of The Apprentice on NBC with Trump choosing the Republican Presidential candidate for 2024.

... via trial by combat, with Rudy Guliani as umpire. Fuck yeah

 

[Wilf]

Is there much liberal assumptions and hysteria going on here? Trumpism is about working class voters abandoned by the democrats & liberal establishment, but it's also about violent far-right radicals. While there's some overlap, these are really two separate groups.

Observe the people who've been identified so far from yesterday - the woman who died was a business owner. There's lawyers, ex-cops, the son of a NY State Supreme Court judge, a real estate agent, a teacher, a lieutenant sheriff, various small time politicians. One woman flew in on a private jet. The podium thief is married to a doctor. When these people are identified and their personal photos from facebook etc are shared, it's inevitably holding automatic weapons which cost many thousands of pounds. The people involved in the violence yesterday are not, on the whole, poor and desperate people.

I've seen people try to dismiss Trump's working class constituency because of the relative wealth of his radical far right constituency, and I definitely don't want to do that - but I also don't think it's sensible to lump these guys in with them.

I was no doubt discussing too many things in 1 post, replying to you, who were in turn referring to an article... a debate on here 4/5 years ago... SmokeandSteam's own post on here. Yep, too much. Anyway, for me the liberal hysteria was primarily in the media reporting of the insurrection, the notion of a 'sacred' place, the hall of the people etc. IN that sense, the American media, the reaction of the Dems and some of the GOP. But I do think that unless we keep in mind class politics and neo-liberalism, that the Dems are part of the problem, then there's an implicit reversion in this discussion towards the idea of a neutral liberal democracy, that is somehow worth defending from 'the horde'.

I'm with you on separating things out too. I saw an clip earlier where a black American blogger was interviewed and described the events purely in terms of white supremacism. I struggled to disagree with anything she said - for example the differences to the policing of BLM - but wanted to add in other groups and other motivations. As you say, the rich. Always worth remembering trump's electoral support isn't that different to the usual GOP vote. But the WC vote and the (dishonest) narrative of trump as saviour for workers abandoned by the Dems shouldn't be lost (as you say). Again, as you say, it will be interesting to see the profile of the wider set of arrests if and when that happens, to see if there has been a further 'radicalisation' (I fucking hate that word) of small business owners etc.

 

[killer b]

I was no doubt discussing too many things in 1 post, replying to you, who were in turn referring to an article... a debate on here 4/5 years ago... SmokeandSteam's own post on here. Yep, too much. Anyway, for me the liberal hysteria was primarily in the media reporting of the insurrection, the notion of a 'sacred' place, the hall of the people etc. IN that sense, the American media, the reaction of the Dems and some of the GOP. But I do think that unless we keep in mind class politics and neo-liberalism, that the Dems are part of the problem, then there's an implicit reversion in this discussion towards the idea of a neutral liberal democracy, that is somehow worth defending from 'the horde'.

I'm with you on separating things out too. I saw an clip earlier where a black American blogger was interviewed and described the events purely in terms of white supremacism. I struggled to disagree with anything she said - for example the differences to the policing of BLM - but wanted to add in other groups and other motivations. As you say, the rich. Always worth remembering trump's electoral support isn't that different to the usual GOP vote. But the WC vote and the (dishonest) narrative of trump as saviour for workers abandoned by the Dems shouldn't be lost (as you say). Again, as you say, it will be interesting to see the profile of the wider set of arrests if and when that happens, to see if there has been a further 'radicalisation' (I fucking hate that word) of small business owners etc.

the bellingcat article about Ashli Babbit has some details about her radicalisation - would be interested to see some more in depth stuff about this tbh.

The Journey of Ashli Babbitt - bellingcat

Retracing the final steps of the woman killed by police during the storm of the US Capitol.

www.bellingcat.com