beesonthewhatnow
going deaf for a living
I’d say world leaders lining up on your side is a reasonable boost to your PR, yeah.
US election 2020 thread
- Thread starter petee
- Start date
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Surely you can think of a few. Support for a coup within various powerful institutions - the judiciary, the army, the legislature. Also at state level. You think California would accept the authority of the new government? Popular unrest at such a level that a coup would be accepted by enough of the population for it to assert its authority. In the case of the US, popular unrest at such a level that a coup would be accepted internationally.
None of this exists. What exists is a petulant man-child who is playing golf.
BlanketAddict
Well-Known Member
Nowhere near as helpful as Russia/China keeping quiet.
BlanketAddict
Well-Known Member
Just my opinion, but I believe a 21st Century coup could formulate in a different manner, and without the need for the institutions etc you mention.
We're dealing with a CULT of Trump, 70 million strong (at least), could well be vital ingredients for a 'coup' if you want to call it that. In reality it's a concerted effort to delegitimise the result. The fact that the arguments are ridiculous is irrelevant, if the SoS and the AG are on board things can happen.
I'm very concerned, more so by the day, about where this is heading.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Not that big. Out of Republican voters who were polled, 70% said that they did not believe the vote was fair. However, the bit of the poll that isn't being mentioned much is that out of those 70%, only about 70% believe that the election was stolen. Around a third of Republican voters don't think elections are fair, full stop, even when they win - faith in the system in the US isn't that high generally.
So in reality, according to that poll that is being widely reported, around half of Republican voters actually believe the crap that Trump is tweeting. Way too many, but not at least 70 million. The fact that the arguments are ridiculous is relevant.
Zapp Brannigan
Built like a steakhouse, handles like a bistro
Co-ordinated effort from Don Sr, Don Jr & Eric all tweeting and retweeting "facts" about Wisconsin turnout. 91%, STATISTICALLY IMPROBABLE! WE CAN'T TRUST THESE RESULTS!
Never mind that turnout in Wisconsin was circa 73% and their claim is beyond easily refuted. They're not even trying to present any evidence of everything, they just want to leave a legacy of doubt so people's recollections in years to come are "well I suppose Biden won, but there was something a bit fishy about it." That can be used for 2024, and if pushed hard enough it can mean Trump isn't such a loser to his believers.
There's a useful comparison there in terms of narrative legacy. That Russia interfered with the election in terms of spreading disinformation isn't really in doubt; what isn't as clear cut is the extent to which Trump and co solicited said misinformation. No-one has seriously suggested that the count said anything other than Trump got more votes where they mattered to take the electoral college, yet here we are 4 years down the line with a large number of democrat supporters (and some officials) pushing the "stolen election" line. Keep pushing and in more years to come there will be a large number of people who vaguely recall 2016 as a 'de-legitimised Trump win'. Trump wants the same in reverse for 2020, enough people to believe that he didn't lose legitimately.
Never mind that turnout in Wisconsin was circa 73% and their claim is beyond easily refuted. They're not even trying to present any evidence of everything, they just want to leave a legacy of doubt so people's recollections in years to come are "well I suppose Biden won, but there was something a bit fishy about it." That can be used for 2024, and if pushed hard enough it can mean Trump isn't such a loser to his believers.
There's a useful comparison there in terms of narrative legacy. That Russia interfered with the election in terms of spreading disinformation isn't really in doubt; what isn't as clear cut is the extent to which Trump and co solicited said misinformation. No-one has seriously suggested that the count said anything other than Trump got more votes where they mattered to take the electoral college, yet here we are 4 years down the line with a large number of democrat supporters (and some officials) pushing the "stolen election" line. Keep pushing and in more years to come there will be a large number of people who vaguely recall 2016 as a 'de-legitimised Trump win'. Trump wants the same in reverse for 2020, enough people to believe that he didn't lose legitimately.
BlanketAddict
Well-Known Member
I do take your point about the 70 million.
I respectfully disagree about the arguments being ridiculous being relevant. The hardcore Trumpers (in government and beyond) will ride with him regardless of what he spouts( and how incredulous it may be!) I think once you've pinned your flag to the Trump tree it's hard to step back and admit it's all a bit silly and disgusting!!
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Harder to do, though. The arguments of those who believe that Russia's interference was decisive in 2016, and also that Trump colluded with it, can't be proved wrong. Trump's claims can. It's 'there was no moon landing' territory.
bimble
floofy
here we are at the end of 2020 and you still think facts are the important thing more important that whether or not you have a good story to tell, thats sweet.
Zapp Brannigan
Built like a steakhouse, handles like a bistro
That is true, accepted. On the other hand, 70 million people voted for Trump regardless - there will be a whole lot of people amongst them who don't give a fig for facts, they are willing and able to accept that slightest element of doubt and neither question it themselves or believe the refutation when presented with it.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Of course facts matter. There is another way of looking at that rather alarming poll, which is that Trump has already lost half of his own supporters over this nonsense.
bimble
floofy
this is the first thing i've seen today that i do find properly reassuring . I mean just under half of all republican voters is still a lot of people but still:
www.reuters.com
Nearly 80% of Americans say Biden won White House, ignoring Trump's refusal to concede: Reuters/Ipsos poll
Nearly 80% of Americans, including more than half of Republicans, recognize President-elect Joe Biden as the winner of the Nov. 3 election after most media organizations called the race for the Democrat based on his leads in critical battleground states, according to a Reuters...
www.reuters.com
Zapp Brannigan
Built like a steakhouse, handles like a bistro
The telling numbers from the election are that Republicans made gains in the House and didn't lose out in the Senate. Voters didn't reject the Republicans, nor did they embrace Joe Biden &/or the Democrats. They rejected Donald J Trump.
If Trump were capable of self-reflection, that should be eating away at his insides right now. Counterpoint to that - if the Democrats as a collective were capable of self-reflection, it should be causing them sleepless nights too.
If Trump were capable of self-reflection, that should be eating away at his insides right now. Counterpoint to that - if the Democrats as a collective were capable of self-reflection, it should be causing them sleepless nights too.
BlanketAddict
Well-Known Member
This.
In a nutshell, is key to understanding Trump.
There are no facts, only proclamations. If you can get enough idiots/bigots/angry people to back you up you can be a force.
I despise the man, he's fractured a great country but I'm yet to be convinced the final nail has been put in his Presidential coffin (which is staggering really when you consider the evidence that he DIDN'T WIN!)
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Just goes to show how much it matters how information is presented - both within a poll and when the poll's results are reported. That poll isn't actually much different from the alarmist 70% one. It just asks the questions in a slightly different way and presents the results differently.this is the first thing i've seen today that i do find properly reassuring . I mean just under half of all republican voters is still a lot of people but still:
Nearly 80% of Americans say Biden won White House, ignoring Trump's refusal to concede: Reuters/Ipsos poll
Nearly 80% of Americans, including more than half of Republicans, recognize President-elect Joe Biden as the winner of the Nov. 3 election after most media organizations called the race for the Democrat based on his leads in critical battleground states, according to a Reuters...
bimble
floofy
If facts and evidence were a really important piece of the strategy (the kind of evidence that would convince courts i mean) then it would be weird that he's been saying the exact same thing for half a year, but he has. This is from June. I don't think they ever seriously expected any of the court cases to succeed, they're just theatre. 
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
The strategy has failed.
I don't think anyone has said that facts and evidence were an important piece of Trump's strategy. They clearly weren't. And his strategy failed. Not great evidence for the power of fact-free strategies.
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MickiQ
In My Defence I was left Unsupervised
" U.S. Attorney General William Barr has authorized federal investigations of “substantial” allegations of voting irregularities" from the above. How does this work then?
Is anyone actually doing any investigation? Or have they just nodded and said "Yes Boss" and done nothing. Below Barr most of them are going to be career officials who have no loyalty to Trump or Biden.
Is anyone actually doing any investigation? Or have they just nodded and said "Yes Boss" and done nothing. Below Barr most of them are going to be career officials who have no loyalty to Trump or Biden.
elbows
Well-Known Member
Give it time, Trump is a slow reader and has not yet finished searching the phone book for a Bobby Reichstag Jr that he can hire and then fire.
cupid_stunt
Merry fecking Christmas.
this is the first thing i've seen today that i do find properly reassuring . I mean just under half of all republican voters is still a lot of people but still:
Nearly 80% of Americans say Biden won White House, ignoring Trump's refusal to concede: Reuters/Ipsos poll
Nearly 80% of Americans, including more than half of Republicans, recognize President-elect Joe Biden as the winner of the Nov. 3 election after most media organizations called the race for the Democrat based on his leads in critical battleground states, according to a Reuters...
So, only 3% thinks Trump won.
actually a whole lot less people than think the moon landings were faked then.So, only 3% thinks Trump won.
co-op
But....but cLoWnFiSh....
Yeah but everyone knows THEY were a fake
From their point of view, there’s very little to gain at this point from going against Trump as they badly need him to be invested in the January runoffs in Georgia.
Yes, they have a credibility issue with the electorate but everything Trump has done since the election is perfectly legal; weird and futile it may be but he’s well within his rights to challenge the results. Once it’s all blown over they can just say they were following due process.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I think one thing these latest polls show is that two things should be separated here. Many people in the US are clearly prepared to vote for a liar. But we should not assume that voting for him means automatically that they believe the lies. The 'Trump Cult' is actually really not very big.
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