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Urban v's the Commentariat

toggle said:
This is why I believe that discussion of exclusion of transwomen within women's circles is aimed at countering attempts by TERFs to police and otherwise influence women's communities
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Except that when you read what the woman who coined the term has to say about it, she doesn't describe it as a response to terfs at all. Instead it specifically refers to the disjuncture between being accepted socially or politically as part of "the queer community or lesbian community" and being considered "fuckable" within that community.

Now terfs don't accept transwomen as part of "the queer community or lesbian community" in a social, political or sexual sense, so this can hardly be any kind of an oblique reference to them. Instead it is directly a reference to lesbians and bisexual women who do accept transwomen as women but do not consider them "fuckable". I'm not being tendentious here. It's all spelled out by Deveaux in pretty straightforward terms above.

To be blunt, it looks to me like you are trying to find a better alternative meaning for the term than the one intended.
 
Or that the term itself has been hijacked by terfs and used in abhorrent ways.

The poisonous terfs are scum tbqh, utter scum.
 
Balbi said:
Or that the term itself has been hijacked by terfs and used in abhorrent ways.

The poisonous terfs are scum tbqh, utter scum.
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Well yes. But the fact that terfs, particularly of the Brennan variety, are abhorrent isn't really the issue here. Of course they've seized on the term to make all kinds of wild and vicious claims. You'd expect nothing less.

But that doesn't mean that anything they take and distort into a paranoid fantasy then has to be defended as if it was a good idea. The "cotton ceiling" framing seems to me to be a very dubious angle on a real issue.
 
Nigel Irritable said:
Well yes. But the fact that terfs, particularly of the Brennan variety, are abhorrent isn't really the issue here. Of course they've seized on the term to make all kinds of wild and vicious claims. You'd expect nothing less.

But that doesn't mean that anything they take and distort into a paranoid fantasy then has to be defended as if it was a good idea. The "cotton ceiling" framing seems to me to be a very dubious angle on a real issue.
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We're still talking about World of Warcraft here, right? :confused:
 
Nigel Irritable said:
Except that when you read what the woman who coined the term has to say about it, she doesn't describe it as a response to terfs at all. Instead it specifically refers to the disjuncture between being accepted socially or politically as part of "the queer community or lesbian community" and being considered "fuckable" within that community.

Now terfs don't accept transwomen as part of "the queer community or lesbian community" in a social, political or sexual sense, so this can hardly be any kind of an oblique reference to them. Instead it is directly a reference to lesbians and bisexual women who do accept transwomen as women but do not consider them "fuckable". I'm not being tendentious here. It's all spelled out by Deveaux in pretty straightforward terms above.

To be blunt, it looks to me like you are trying to find a better alternative meaning for the term than the one intended.
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I don't agree with you and I've already explained why.
 
toggle said:
I don't agree with you and I've already explained why.
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Yes, you have. But you haven't engaged at all with the DeVeaux's own explanation for the term. You are obviously under no obligation to do so, but without wanting to be a dick a out it I'm more inclined to take her assertions at face value than yours, given that she coined the term.
 
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Sounds a bit like the beginning of God and the State by Bakunin

but I was asking where did stavvers write it? twitter? blog? Was it part of some other piece of writing?
 
Amazing, hidden stuff is because other women are too thick to get a blog and write in the guardian and new statesman(we're coming - and we're coming proper)

I find myself wishing I could be like those other women, the ones who don’t have to see this, the ones who can sit comfortably and believe that nothing is wrong. It must be so nice, having so little to worry about. It must be lovely, not having to check oneself at all, with no knowledge of one’s own complicity in this oppressive power structure. It must be absolutely fucking brilliant, being able to feel like they can actually do things and achieve things because the magnitude of the problem is largely invisible.
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Mass lol of the day:

I want you to see what I see. I know it will hurt. But you need to see it to destroy it.
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I guess there is a degree of truth to what Laurie is saying but I don't see how that makes universities all that different from most businesses or for that matter secondary schools. Well the dictatorship bit anyway, I don't know where the military comes into it.
 
J Ed said:
I guess there is a degree of truth to what Laurie is saying but I don't see how that makes universities all that different from most businesses or for that matter secondary schools. Well the dictatorship bit anyway, I don't know where the military comes into it.
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She's referring to the stupid bail conditions and the copper who took a swing at a student the other day. Shitty hyperbole like that just rubbishes the seriousness of the actual issues and trivialises the reality of proper military dictatorships.
 
copliker said:
She's referring to the stupid bail conditions and the copper who took a swing at a student the other day. Shitty hyperbole like that just rubbishes the seriousness of the actual issues and trivialises the reality of proper military dictatorships.
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I just meant in terms of work places being democratic etc, I think that there are still places where school management is elected by teachers...

Obviously LP didn't really think it that far through though, it's just a silly meaningless platitude of the kind she specialises in
 
J Ed said:
I just meant in terms of work places being democratic etc, I think that there are still places where school management is elected by teachers...

Obviously LP didn't really think it that far through though, it's just a silly meaningless platitude of the kind she specialises in
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To be fair though that was a tweet wasn't it? The format of twitter really lends itself to platitudes like that it's hard to avoid. And LP wrote something in the guardian about it that struck a decent tone and was largely hyperbole free iirc.

I know ULU and that Michael Chessum lad have had a really hard time off the police with his bail, and I was surprised by how casually violent the police have been in response to these demos and strikes, but after the way in which the government dealt out the most draconian sentences and bail conditions for people involved in the riots I can't say i'm shocked at all. I mean this is tame compared to that, thousands were jailed, and further thousands given fines, crippling bail terms, criminal records hat exclude from employment and certain benefits.
 
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