Urban v's the Commentariat

[J Ed]

not sure.

most of the open biphobia I see regularly is coming from the same transphobic radfem mouthpieces as those that claim that MtF transition is a deliberate attempt by men to invade women only space.

I first heard about this idea a few years ago and it still confuses me. Surely no one can seriously think that there are people who are ideological MRAs out there who undergo a sex change purely to enter feminist events and disrupt them or undermine them.

 

[toggle]

Really? I don't know enough of them thank god, I think it comes from all sorts of sources by far the main one being from people who are also homophobic.

I really wish I could unsee some of the stuff of theirs I have found. it is deeply disturbing. they also claim that their choice* to identify as feminist and lesbian gives them the right to attack anyone else who dosen't conform to a binary gender or sexuality. and that will if necessary include working with MRA groups to attack transfolk.

* and from what I can gather, in some cases, choice is entirely the right word to use, lesbianism as a political statement rather than a genuine expression of sexuality, and they believe any woman identifying as bi does so because she is supporting patriarchy by still sleeping with the enemy

 

[toggle]

I first heard about this idea a few years ago and it still confuses me. Surely no one can seriously think that there are people who are ideological MRAs out there who undergo a sex change purely to enter feminist events and disrupt them or undermine them.

I don't think they are claiming it on an individual basis, because I don't think they seperate the acts of individual men from the expression of the patriarchal power structure. men are enemy- all men - even those men who are fucked over by society more than some of their supporters who are in well paid jobs.

I think the fundamental problem is they see all men as having patriarchal power over all women and cannot comprehend that someone they will always define as a man could willingly give up that power to live as a woman, so there has to be an ulterior motive to transitioning. according to some of their propeganda, transition is to try to deny the right to women only space and force lesbians to fuck them.

I won't link to any of this, but one example I would give if you want to go look at some of this is Cathy Brennan. aka pegasusbug

 

[Nigel Irritable]

according to some of their propeganda, transition is to try to deny the right to women only space and force lesbians to fuck them.

It's worth saying (and I know you weren't implying otherwise) that not all radical feminists are bigoted against trans people.

On another note, the "cotton ceiling" stuff seemed pretty warped to me. Firstly because it was targeted at lesbians rather than the entire population of people (mostly straight men) who are sexually interested in women. And secondly, because it contained an assumption that lesbians are (or should be) attracted to all women rather than to a subset of women. Nobody owes anyone else sexual attraction, still less do they owe anyone sex.

 

[Delroy Booth]

not sure.

most of the open biphobia I see regularly is coming from the same transphobic radfem mouthpieces as those that claim that MtF transition is a deliberate attempt by men to invade women only space.

I distinctly remember hearing the phrase "acquiring male privilege" used against FtM trans people on twitter last year if that's of any interest

 

[toggle]

It's worth saying (and I know you weren't implying otherwise) that not all radical feminists are bigoted against trans people.

On another note, the "cotton ceiling" stuff seemed pretty warped to me. Firstly because it was targeted at lesbians rather than the entire population of people (mostly straight men) who are sexually interested in women. And secondly, because it contained an assumption that lesbians are (or should be) attracted to all women rather than to a subset of women. Nobody owes anyone else sexual attraction, still less do they owe anyone sex.

not really. that's what it was interpreted as by a specific group.

it is aimed at that specific group, TERFs, trans exclusionary radical feminists. the ones who promote the transwoman as male rapist meme who have also promoted that the cotton ceiling issue was about demanding a right to sex. it wasn't.

the demand was that transwomen should be included in women's communities. that terfs should no longer police those communities against transwomen and promote the abuse of transwomen. that transwomen should be allowed to join the groups that campaign for women's equality and safety, that they would add their voices to the voices of other women to help women. nd as part of that community, relationships could then be a possibility. and if a transwoman had a relationship with a lesbian, the lesbian should not face abuse and exclusion for her choices.

it was not ever about saying that an individual should be told who they should have sex with. that kind of thinking is more likely to be found among the TREFs, where you still find those who claim all women should choose to reject the penis, as a political statement, because penetrative sex is subjagation to patriarchy.

what the exact definitions of everything that counts as transphobia is or ins't, IDK, but I do know that policing whether other women fuck transwomen is transphobia. and that is what this was about.

 

[toggle]

I distinctly remember hearing the phrase "acquiring male privilege" used against FtM trans people on twitter last year if that's of any interest

 

[frogwoman]

all women should choose to reject the penis, as a political statement,

wtf

 

[frogwoman]

I first heard about this idea a few years ago and it still confuses me. Surely no one can seriously think that there are people who are ideological MRAs out there who undergo a sex change purely to enter feminist events and disrupt them or undermine them.

it wouldn't surprise me if someone, somewhere had tbh theres nazis that spend their lives pretending to be jews in order to be cunts to everyone and raise awareness of their cause

 

[Nigel Irritable]

not really. that's what it was interpreted as by a specific group.

That does not appear to me to be the case. From a quick google, these are all very definitely non-terf writers, supportive of the concept, using it in the way I outlined above.
http://factcheckme.wordpress.com/2012/03/13/the-cotton-ceiling-really/
http://tobitastic.tumblr.com/post/19916145506/ceiling-metaphors-are-used-for-systemic-change
http://rozk.livejournal.com/445853.html
http://www.cuntext.com/2012/dear-marcie-cotton-ceiling-questioning-desire/

That is to say that it is (a) specifically about sexual rather than political inclusion (b) specifically amongst "queer women". The last link provides possibly the pithiest summary, describing "not being considered datable or fuckable by the majority of one’s queer community" as "a specific experience of cissexism and transphobic". There is also, of course, the rather obvious sexual reference in the term itself.

 

[frogwoman]

I won't link to any of this, but one example I would give if you want to go look at some of this is Cathy Brennan. aka pegasusbug

oh god i've read some of her stuff

 

[Balbi]

oh god i've read some of her stuff

She's got a habit of finding photos of people and then smearing them. Was over at @orgwomenslib, RTing everyone and such. Then got suspended again.

 

[frogwoman]

She's got a habit of finding photos of people and then smearing them. Was over at @orgwomenslib, RTing everyone and such. Then got suspended again.

didnt she get someone expelled from their school for having a go at her on the internet?

 

[Balbi]

She's outed trans people to schools, workplaces, written to the U.N demanding trans people be stripped of human rights. She's a pro at doxing people and splashing their details online for all to see. Nasty.

 

[toggle]

That does not appear to me to be the case. From a quick google, these are all very definitely non-terf writers, supportive of the concept, using it in the way I outlined above.
http://factcheckme.wordpress.com/2012/03/13/the-cotton-ceiling-really/
http://tobitastic.tumblr.com/post/19916145506/ceiling-metaphors-are-used-for-systemic-change
http://rozk.livejournal.com/445853.html

That is to say that it is (a) specifically about sexual rather than political inclusion (b) specifically amongst "queer women".

factcheckme is definately terf. use of terms like 'pretendbian' as a label for a gay transwoman or talking about the value of SCUM is a bit of a giveaway. some of the links off that are vile.

don't really have the stomach for any more tonight

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Factcheckme may well be terf, but the letter that link includes is not. Even if you think theyve faked the exchange, the other three sites linked to above are definitely not terf. Neither were the other half dozen pieces I stumbled upon with a quick google (although there were many terf hits too).

I've yet to come across an article saying that the term is a reference to terfs policing who can sleep with who.

 

[toggle]

oh, it's not terf, but oh, it is terf. make your mind up

 

[TruXta]

This lingo is almost harder to follow than some of the left-occult stuff.

 

[captainmission]

The cotton ceiling refers specially to exclusion from sexual activity, rather than the broader exclusion from women or lesbian spaces. some terfs have tried to spin it as trans women setting rape camps.

See this article - http://www.transadvocate.com/cotton-ceiling-uncovering-the-trans-conspiracy-to-rape-lesbians.htm

 

[Nigel Irritable]

oh, it's not terf, but oh, it is terf. make your mind up

No need to be snide..

Here's what the woman who coined the term has to say about it:

Drew: The cotton ceiling, in my own words, is talking about the limitations of inclusion, the limitations of peoples spheres of desire – and spheres of desire are what we all have with who we would consider fuckable and not fuckable. Those spheres are not essentialist things, though for a lot of people they can feel that way. They are shaped by cultural representations on what is considered fuckable in a general society as well as subculture and microculture representations about what’s considered part of a particular community - the queer community or the lesbian community. Who is considered part of the community and who is considered fuckable and those aren’t necessarily the same things and thats where the cotton ceiling comes in. The disjoint - and this is what I’m speaking of specifically - a disjoint to who is considered part of a community and who is considered fuckable as part of that community. I first made this public at a conference in Toronto that was put together by Planned Parenthood Toronto to speak about issues of queer trans women within the queer women’s community. That was the explicit theme of the conference and the context to which I introduced the concept. It is a way to think about an issue that a lot of queer trans women experience - the limits of inclusion in the queer women’s cis-gendered dominated community. The cotton ceiling was a way to make visible, in a playful way, with the cotton signifying sheets or underwear, the issues surrounding intimacy and thats what it’s really trying to get at. There is a limit to solidarity and a limit to trans women getting full inclusion, which would include sexual inclusion. There might be queer women who accept trans women into their space but there are still prevailing notions that shape desire in the queer women’s community that trans women do not constitute fuckable people. I think we should strive for full inclusion and it behooves all of us to reconsider those boundaries and why we draw those boundaries. Something that gets often ignored is that just because I raised this issue within the context of trans women doesn’t mean it doesn’t have utility for all trans people - I think it can have particular relevance to a lot of communities where visibility or identity, if found out, can impede on embodied experiences.

http://bodiesofworkmag.com/post/32941486812/drewdeveaux

I presume you don't think she's a terf?

I'm in no way trying to imply that transwomen are dodgy sex predators or secret rapists or anything similar. Nor do I think it's unreasonable for trans people to discuss the barriers being trans may present to being desired in a transphobic society (captain mission's link draws a very apt comparison with disability in that regard). But as far as I can tell the "cotton ceiling" is focused on lesbian and bisexual cis women in particular and carries some dubious implications about who other people should be attracted to, and so is a bad way to frame that discussion.

 

[J Ed]

it wouldn't surprise me if someone, somewhere had tbh theres nazis that spend their lives pretending to be jews in order to be cunts to everyone and raise awareness of their cause

I just googled Jewish Hitler and false flag and

 

[toggle]

is that what you are claiming is

an assumption that lesbians are (or should be) attracted to all women rather than to a subset of women

or that they...

owes anyone else sexual attraction, still less do they owe anyone sex.

can you show me how you worked out that this is a claim lesbians owe all women sex?

 

[Nigel Irritable]

is that what you are claiming is




or that they...



can you show me how you worked out that this is a claim lesbians owe all women sex?

An, shifting goalposts, my favourite way to have a discussion. Before I answer that can we take it that you now accept that the term refers to lesbian and bisexual women's communities, and to sexual rather than political inclusion and is not about terfs policing who people should sleep with?

 

[Belushi]

I just get this image in my head of a rich educated person at their computer finding increasingly desperate reasons why they are more oppressed than anyone else; while in the background a poor immigrant cleaner quietly gets on with hoovering their apartment.

 

[toggle]

An, shifting goalposts, my favourite way to have a discussion. Before I answer that can we take it that you now accept that the term refers to lesbian and bisexual women's communities, and to sexual rather than political inclusion and is not about terfs policing who people should sleep with?

are you refusing to explain how that statement supports your previous assertions, or accepting that it dosen't?

 

[Nigel Irritable]

are you refusing to explain how that statement supports your previous assertions, or accepting that it dosen't?

I've already said I will answer your question. I just want confirmation that you've now abandoned your old argument first because life's too short to chase someone around as they slip between arguments.

 

[revol68]

Not getting a ride is now another form of oppression?

Surely that is the most desperate last ditch line ever.

 

[DotCommunist]

I just get this image in my head of a rich educated person at their computer finding increasingly desperate reasons why they are more oppressed than anyone else; while in the background a poor immigrant cleaner quietly gets on with hoovering their apartment.

the paxmen of this world

 

[revol68]

"Well if you weren't so tied into white heterosexist notions of sexuality you'd want to bang the shit out me!"

 

[toggle]

I'm in no way trying to imply that transwomen are dodgy sex predators or secret rapists or anything similar. Nor do I think it's unreasonable for trans people to discuss the barriers being trans may present to being desired in a transphobic society (captain mission's link draws a very apt comparison with disability in that regard). But as far as I can tell the "cotton ceiling" is focused on lesbian and bisexual cis women in particular and carries some dubious implications about who other people should be attracted to, and so is a bad way to frame that discussion.

from the transwoman quoted on that vile terf blog you linked to earlier

think that everyone has the right to decide who they want to have sex with, how they want to have that sex, and when they want to have that sex, or to not have sex at all. Consent is incredibly important, and no one should ever feel pressured to have sex of any kind with anybody.

......... I believe that many cis queer women do not see queer trans women as viable sexual partners in large part due to the cultural messages that exist, both within queer culture and mainstream/straight culture, that tell us that trans women’s bodies are inherently undesirable except as a fetish for cis straight men. I also think that it is rooted in the belief that trans women are not women, which is transphobic and transmisogynist.

I see no problem in discussing the issues of exclusion that transfolk face within the queer community. Nor do I see any particular problem in discussing that dating within those communities will be affected by this.

What I am aware of is that the issue this concept particularly addresses, the attitudes towards gay transwomen will be affected by the discussion of who is and sin't woman. and the people who I believe are most influential in trying to deny transwomen are women within women's circles are TERFs. Their attitudes will influence people within those communities, even where they don't have enough influence to actually bar transwomen, which they do unfortunately have in a number of places. This is why I believe that discussion of exclusion of transwomen within women's circles is aimed at countering attempts by TERFs to police and otherwise influence women's communities