Urban v's the Commentariat

[Casually Red]

On the NCAFC facebook group I've seen a number of people arguing that encouraging people to come to a protest is ableist because it highlights the exclusion of people who are unable to come.

The same people also argued that talking about zombies was ableist.

I don't understand how they are able to survive on a day to day basis.

if i ever take power thatll be sorted...read my lips.

 

[Balbi]

if i ever take power thatll be sorted...read my lips.

*furiously signs 'ABLEIST!'*

 

[Bakunin]

fuck fuck fuck fuckity fuck

Casually Red, yesterday:

 

[Casually Red]

you should see me today

 

[co-op]

Is it though? Or is it saying that, even in an equal, classless society, sexism/homophobia/racism would still be problems and they need to be addressed now, because class equality alone will not deliver them?

We don't know what will still be problems in a society where power is distributed equally but there is passable evidence from history (and I think from most people's individual lives) that when economic hierarchies shrink or vanish (even temporarily) that most of the ism-issues also start to spontaneously lessen or even disappear.

This isn't to say that the ism-issues don't need to be looked at consciously now (for obvious reasons), or to say that everything will magically be perfect in a future radically altered society. But it does suggest that to prioritise this stuff over economic and political power is - at best - tackling the symptoms not the disease and - at worst - what ba and others have pointed up so brilliantly on this thread, ie an intellectual-ideological power-grab by a small sub-set of the existing governing elite. It also very very clearly sets up a divide-and-rule strategy for that elite and is underwritten by a hyper-individualised obsession with individual identity and action rather than collective identity and action.

 

[rekil]

Justine Tunney interview. It's packed with hits, but imo, the best bit starts at 40:30 mark where the caste system is discussed.

Spoiler

 

[DotCommunist]

can you precis the greatest hits for me?

 

[Casually Red]

We don't know what will still be problems in a society where power is distributed equally but there is passable evidence from history (and I think from most people's individual lives) that when economic hierarchies shrink or vanish (even temporarily) that most of the ism-issues also start to spontaneously lessen or even disappear.

This isn't to say that the ism-issues don't need to be looked at consciously now (for obvious reasons), or to say that everything will magically be perfect in a future radically altered society. But it does suggest that to prioritise this stuff over economic and political power is - at best - tackling the symptoms not the disease and - at worst - what ba and others have pointed up so brilliantly on this thread, ie an intellectual-ideological power-grab by a small sub-set of the existing governing elite. It also very very clearly sets up a divide-and-rule strategy for that elite and is underwritten by a hyper-individualised obsession with individual identity and action rather than collective identity and action.

very well put sir

 

[rekil]

can you precis the greatest hits for me?

India's caste system is great - the untouchables "aren't part" of it.
Anarchists who break windows are degenerates who should be jailed.
Google should build new cities without zoning boards, labour unions and bureacracy getting in the way - "better than Singapore".
Lots of shit about being a leader of occupy and demanding to know why nobody is doing anything now.
Something about steaks I *need* to check again.

It's fucking painful. Salute to the interviewer who managed to keep it together.

 

[J Ed]

Kill it with fire

 

[rekil]

Herr Hitler (yes!) said pretty much the same thing at the Dusseldorf Industry Club in 1932.

 

[DotCommunist]

he sounds like randist filth who should be impaled on a spike as an example to the others

 

[butchersapron]

he sounds like randist filth who should be impaled on a spike as an example to the others

She. The name sort of indicates it.

 

[DaveCinzano]

She. The name sort of indicates it.

ONLY THE CASTE ENEMY GENDERS A STRANGER

 

[butchersapron]

I suspect this person gets their caste nonsense from star wars or star trek or star gate or something rather then millennia of inequality and abuse.

This is gettting beyond daft now.

 

[DotCommunist]

Babylon 5- the Minbarri caste system is benign and theres nobody at the bottom getting shit on.

 

[DaveCinzano]

Occupy Tattooine

 

[Dogsauce]

The radical privileged will always resort to self-interest once they grow up a bit. They have stuff to lose.

 

[butchersapron]

Occupy Tattooine

Someone's on the case:

 

[DotCommunist]

the sandpeople walk single file to hide thier numbers

 

[butchersapron]

the sandpeople walk single file to hide thier numbers

That's Joy Division.

 

[fogbat]

the sandpeople walk single file to hide thier numbers

The sandpeople are idiots. Should use 171.

 

[Dogsauce]

They're easily frightened, but return in greater numbers. Here endeth the similarity with Occupy.

 

[ViolentPanda]

But to turn that around, in the way socialism is used by the majority of its 'commentariat' proponents, it reduces complex situations to binary oppositions - rich=poor, capitalist=worker and so on. But we don't dismiss socialism on that basis, so what's the difference? What is solidarity if not allying?

The only member of the commentariat I've seen being that simplistic about socialisms is Ms. Penny. Most of the rest tend to acknowledge that socialism is more nuanced, and deals in social strata rather than binary oppositions.

Rather than trying to neutralise arguments, could it not be seen as trying to carve out a space to discuss things that, in the view of their proponents, have not been fully explored before? Maybe there is an absence of class arguments because they're being discussed elsewhere?

Or perhaps it's due to some people making a decision that class is no longer relevant, and allowing all their arguments to proceed from that assumption?

As far as I can tell they are taking the language of class and applying it to other social constructs. So why would they apply it back to class?

No, they're taking the language of class, and using it selectively, in a Humpty-Dumpty manner, in order to support their own arguments.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Calling women bitches for wearing an item of clothing, lecturing ethnic minorities on what is racism, being racist/homophobic themselves, nah all fine because they checked their privilege

TBF, this has always happened, and always will. There are always eejits who believe they're above the "rules" that govern quotidian beings such as ourselves, and who believe that the judgements they make of people are neutral because they happen to think they're self-aware. You can't argue with them, either, because they always but always know better, regardless of whether they've any actual experience of what they're farting on about.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Babylon 5- the Minbarri caste system is benign and theres nobody at the bottom getting shit on.

Until Delenn broke the Grey Council, and thewarrior caste starting feeling their dicks.

 

[Pickman's model]

The sandpeople are idiots. Should use 171.

should get lucky dip

 

[DotCommunist]

Until Delenn broke the Grey Council, and thewarrior caste starting feeling their dicks.

it did seem fairly implausible prior to that- a caste set up where the warriors don't fuck everyone over? And the priest caste don't tell the worker caste its thier own fault?

 

[Idris2002]

you should see me today

 

[Idris2002]

Kill it with fire

Anthropologists of the caste system are really, really, insistent that it's not a concept that can be used outside of India, Nepal, and a few pockets of the Indian diaspora.