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Ukraine and the Russian invasion, Feb 2022 - tangentially related crap

RD2003 said:
Showing solidarity is one thing, but to assist refugees it isn't necessary, at least to anybody with some knowledge of Russian, as all Ukrainians understand Russian, the vast majority of them, in all parts of Ukraine, having grown up speaking Russian.

Russian is the more useful language in this instance, as it enables you to speak to people on both sides.
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If I'm taking in Ukrainian refugees, the majority of whom speak Ukrainian as their primary native language why on earth would I learn Russian so that I could speak to both sides, rather than trying to speak to them in the language they would prefer to be spoken to in. The Ukrainian refugees I know were really grateful that their host made the effort to learn some words of Ukrainian for them, especially as they had a 4 year old who spoke no English, and had extremely limited Russian.

To think I took you off ignore to read that utter rubbish :D
 
strung out said:
If I'm taking in Ukrainian refugees, the majority of whom speak Ukrainian as their primary native language why on earth would I learn Russian so that I could speak to both sides, rather than trying to speak to them in the language they would prefer to be spoken to in. The Ukrainian refugees I know were really grateful that their host made the effort to learn some words of Ukrainian for them, especially as they had a 4 year old who spoke no English, and had extremely limited Russian.

To think I took you off ignore to read that utter rubbish :D
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I did say that I'm unsure about the situation in Ukraine with regard to the language now. You've highlighted the 'majority' point above while failing to make it a link to your source. Even if this is the case, however, it's doubtful that as many Ukrainians over a certain age are as fluent in a language they spent most of their lives largely in ignorance of as they are in Russian. Which means that whatever their preference, it would be a hindrance rather than a help to speak in Ukrainian. And this not least because those foreigners trying to speak Ukrainian to them would have, at best, only a rudimentary grasp of the language, having only just begun learning it.

Presumably, being so invested in this war yourself, you'd want to also speak to Russian dissenters, at least some of whom can surely be found over here. Russian, therefore, would enable you to be understood by both Russians and Ukrainians. Learning Ukrainian might be a 'nice' gesture, but it is hardly spoken outside Ukraine and among the diaspora. Russian, in contrast, enables you to be understood throughout Ukraine and across the whole of the ex-USSR, as well as (although by now to an extent which will be declining) across most of the old eastern block.
 
RD2003 said:
Presumably, being so invested in this war yourself, you'd want to also speak to Russian dissenters.
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If I'm taking in Ukrainian refugees, I would want to speak to them in the language they identify as being their preferred one, which is overwhelmingly Ukrainian, even if you only go by the 2001 Ukrainian census. Unlike you, this isn't just a reckon based off some half remembered gap year in 1980s Russia, but actually speaking to the Ukrainian refugees I know.

Sadly, Russian dissenters appear to be few and far between in this country compared to the number of Ukrainian refugees who require our help and solidarity.
 
strung out said:
If I'm taking in Ukrainian refugees, I would want to speak to them in the language they identify as being their preferred one, which is overwhelmingly Ukrainian, even if you only go by the 2001 Ukrainian census. Unlike you, this isn't just a reckon based off some half remembered gap year in 1980s Russia, but actually speaking to the Ukrainian refugees I know.

Sadly, Russian dissenters appear to be few and far between in this country compared to the number of Ukrainian refugees who require our help and solidarity.
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If you have taken in refugees and have learnt Ukrainian good on you.
 
strung out said:
If I'm taking in Ukrainian refugees, I would want to speak to them in the language they identify as being their preferred one, which is overwhelmingly Ukrainian, even if you only go by the 2001 Ukrainian census. Unlike you, this isn't just a reckon based off some half remembered gap year in 1980s Russia, but actually speaking to the Ukrainian refugees I know.

Sadly, Russian dissenters appear to be few and far between in this country compared to the number of Ukrainian refugees who require our help and solidarity.
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Have you hosted so far?
 
strung out said:
If I'm taking in Ukrainian refugees, I would want to speak to them in the language they identify as being their preferred one, which is overwhelmingly Ukrainian, even if you only go by the 2001 Ukrainian census. Unlike you, this isn't just a reckon based off some half remembered gap year in 1980s Russia, but actually speaking to the Ukrainian refugees I know.

Sadly, Russian dissenters appear to be few and far between in this country compared to the number of Ukrainian refugees who require our help and solidarity.
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Never done a 'gap year,' even if you might have done, but stayed in the USSR and post-SU for months on end at least half a dozen times between 1988 and '93, and remember it like yesterday.

I was talking about what's most practical, not what you personally might prefer. Although as far as I can tell from what you've said, far from speaking Ukrainian, you've learned a handful of words to say to a four year-old.
 
I don't think people realise how difficult it is for the average Briton to hold a conversation in a Slav language even after years of regular practice. Many more Ukrainians will be proficient in English than the other way round, and stressed as refugees are likely to be, they are likely to have their patience tried before long by inept attempts conducted in infant school level Ukrainian.
 
rubbershoes said:
The mum spoke all three. Her English was largely self-taught and she had a slight Indian accent. Her daughter had spoken largely Russian at home but was learning English.

They taught us some words in Ukrainian but no Russian
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Depending on which words, you'd probably find them useful if you were ever speak to Russians, as there is little difference, at least written down. I haven't practiced any Russian for years, but I find it striking how much written Ukrainian I can understand.
 
maomao said:
I would imagine the popularity of Russian as a medium of communication amongst Ukrainians has waned a little over the last ten and a half months.
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It will depend. The millions who spent their whole lives speaking Russian, and largely ignorant of Ukrainian, are bound to find it hard to break the habit of a lifetime no matter how they feel about what's going on.

The claim that a majority now prefer Ukrainian is merely that-an expressed preference rather than anything practical.
 
TopCat said:
Have you hosted so far?
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No, I don't have space.

My friends are hosting a Ukrainian family though - similar to rubbershoes' experience, the mum speaks English, Russian and Ukrainian, dad Russian and Ukrainian, but they're raising their child to speak Ukrainian and speak exclusively in Ukrainian around the house. They're from Dnipro.
 
RD2003 said:
It will depend. The millions who spent their whole lives speaking Russian, and largely ignorant of Ukrainian, are bound to find it hard to break the habit of a lifetime no matter how they feel about what's going on.

The claim that a majority now prefer Ukrainian is merely that-an expressed preference rather than anything practical.
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I'd be very surprised if you were right. One of language's main purposes is as a social identifier, it tells other people what group you belong to and there's a rather nasty war on.

I also think you're overstating the popularity of the Russian language in Ukraine a little. It's the native language of 68% of the country. That's not a bumpkin dialect.
 
RD2003 said:
I don't think people realise how difficult it is for the average Briton to hold a conversation in a Slav language even after years of regular practice. Many more Ukrainians will be proficient in English than the other way round, and stressed as refugees are likely to be, they are likely to have their patience tried before long by inept attempts conducted in infant school level Ukrainian.
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My friend's a polyglot - already speaks Malay, Mandarin and English fluently, and has done pretty well with her Ukrainian so far, but even if not, it's not always about being able to hold a fluent conversation with someone (although the odd word can be helpful when communicating with a Ukrainian four year old), but about showing that you care about their experience and let them know they're welcome.
 
maomao said:
I'd be very surprised if you were right. One of language's main purposes is as a social identifier, it tells other people what group you belong to and there's a rather nasty war on.

I also think you're overstating the popularity of the Russian language in Ukraine a little. It's the native language of 68% of the country. That's not a bumpkin dialect.
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Not sure if you mean Russian is the native language of 68% of the country, or Ukrainian.

As far as I ever understood, Ukrainian was until recently a language spoken in the less populous west of the country, and even there only by a minority, mostly rural. I was in Lvov (or Lviv if you prefer) in 1996, and nobody seemed to speak anything other than Russian, and I'm not certain I recall signage being in Ukrainian either, although it might well have moved to being in both Russian and Ukrainian by then. And I suppose there might have been a sizeable number who did speak Ukrainian, but didn't use it in daily life.

All Ukrainians, east and west, did, however, speak Russian, and I suspect they still do.
 
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RD2003 said:
Not sure if you mean Russian is the native language of 68% of the country, or Ukrainian.

As far as I ever understood, Ukrainian was until recently a language spoken in the less populous west of the country, and even there only by a minority, mostly rural. I was in Lvov (or Lviv if you prefer) in 1996, and nobody seemed to speak anything other than Russian, and I'm not certain I recall signage being in Ukrainian either, although it might well have moved to being in both Russian and Ukrainian by then. And I suppose there might have been a sizeable number who did speak Ukrainian, but didn't use it in daily life.

All Ukrainians, east and west, did, however, speak Russian, and I suspect they still do.
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I did mean Ukrainian, my mistake.

It does seem that the Ukrainian language was at a low ebb in the 90s. They'd just been through nearly two decades of Russification with Shcherbytsky. Ukrainian became the main language of education and government over the next decade of independence. Large groups of people can change language fairly quickly with a change in national identity, see Hebrew. Your personal experience is probably more than a little out of date.
 
The Ukrainians down the road from me speak Russian and Portuguese, and their daughter speaks English as well. Might be an age thing the parents must be in their late 70s and they are from the east.
 
strung out said:
No, I don't have space.

My friends are hosting a Ukrainian family though - similar to rubbershoes' experience, the mum speaks English, Russian and Ukrainian, dad Russian and Ukrainian, but they're raising their child to speak Ukrainian and speak exclusively in Ukrainian around the house. They're from Dnipro.
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Mine were from Dnipro too
 
maomao said:
I did mean Ukrainian, my mistake.

It does seem that the Ukrainian language was at a low ebb in the 90s. They'd just been through nearly two decades of Russification with Shcherbytsky. Ukrainian became the main language of education and government over the next decade of independence. Large groups of people can change language fairly quickly with a change in national identity, see Hebrew. Your personal experience is probably more than a little out of date.
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The only way of judging it for me personally is through ex-Soviet Ukrainians I've known here since the early 2000s-people I got to know through ambitions not to lose the reasonable-ish grasp of Russian I already had. Some were raised in the east and others in the west of the country. Literally none of the them spoke Ukrainian, and showed little interest in doing so, although some of them have tried, often in an half-arsed way, since the events of 2014. There were a fair number of Russians in their social circle as well (although, it seems, not anymore), and both groups hardly differentiated between each other, which I suppose is hardly surprising when they grew up in what was the same country.
 
My friend works for 3 mobile. He speaks Russian because he lived in Ukraine briefly. 3 has some special deal for Ukrainian refugees so he has to speak to them quite a lot. He finds it a little frustrating as most insist on speaking to him in Ukrainian. Even if historically they've preferred russian more recently they seem prefer Ukrainian. They didnt start learning it in 2022. He and they can understand each other mostly.
 
FWIW my parents have a Ukrainian family staying with them - they're Russian speaking and seem to regard the (pre war) efforts to persuade them to speak Ukrainian as a bit of a joke tbh.
 
maomao said:
Probably comparable to efforts to revitalise Welsh. Some people will throw themselves into it wholeheartedly and some will think it's a bit of a joke.
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..and some, like me, were brought up in a community where the welsh language was a living breathing part of daily life and it was just what everyone had always spoken as a preference to speaking English... Although my local community was pretty rural tbf...
 
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