Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-25

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Everyone in that neck of the woods over 34 will have been

USSR, surely, or to be polite, Estonia. Unless you deign that Estonia is not a valid country, such as...

 

[Pickman's model]

USSR, surely, or to be polite, Estonia. Unless you deign that Estonia is not a valid country, such as...

this brings to mind the auld joke about a man in the ussr being asked where he was born, and he says st petersburg. where did you go to school? petrograd. where do you live? leningrad. where would you like to live? st petersburg. you're getting rather too invested in this

 

[The39thStep]

From whats been bandied about Zaluzhny is also a bit to close to the far right elements

Have you got any sources to back this up?

 

[tim]

Actually i found Putins nonsense quite enlightening...That he did get what Lenin and Stalin had done..Soviet Union was put together as a Union of Soviets in a way this man from St Petersburgs would never have...

Imagine God forbid..UK breaks up and some Manc English rises from its ashes trying to reassert England's place in the world with no understanding of what the Welsh Assembly and Scottish Parliament were about, sat in Westminster , trying to justify what he was doing with talk of King Aurthur and Richard III or Cromwell..

I read Putin's as Butlins, which made slightly more sense.

 

[Artaxerxes]

Have you got any sources to back this up?

Your post?

Post in thread 'Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-23'
Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-23

 

[sleaterkinney]

Certainly the activities of fascists and nationalist elements in Russia should not be ignored, and it isn't, but the same applies to Ukraine (and anywhere else). Also there is a balance of forces in Ukraine at the moment - more liberal tendencies alongside more nationalist ones (as well as limited class struggle forces) -anti-fascists can use the leverage they have to assist in class struggle.

It’s not just elements in Russia ffs, it’s embedded in the state and central to this conflict and if you oppose it you need to back Ukraine.

 

[The39thStep]

Your post?

Post in thread 'Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-23'
Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-23

Always happy to oblige

 

[redsquirrel]

It’s not just elements in Russia ffs, it’s embedded in the state and central to this conflict and if you oppose it you need to back Ukraine.

I back the working class - in Russia, Ukraine, Israel, Palestine, UK, US, everywhere.

 

[gosub]

I read Putin's as Butlins, which made slightly more sense.

Tosser.


When I originally wrote it had Henry VIII instead of Richard. B4 remembering the Tudors were Welsh...Cromwell and Aurthur don't do much for Scots or Irish either. Was a fair analogy

That someone from St Petersburg can't see why Lenin and Stilin did what they did...is particaly because they weren't from Moscow or St Petersburg...

But I think he does know that deep down...there sprinkling of Hungarian folk outfits would have been different in each Soviet for example

 

[spitfire]

Nazi robots sink glorious Russian humanitarian aid ship.

 

[rubbershoes]

I back the working class - in Russia, Ukraine, Israel, Palestine, UK, US, everywhere.

And who do you think is being sent to the front lines and dying in this war?

 

[existentialist]

Nazi robots sink glorious Russian humanitarian aid ship.

There were probably some working class sailors on board that ship

 

[mojo pixy]

There were probably some working class sailors on board that ship

It was probably working class missile shooters that sunk it too

 

[Silas Loom]

It was probably working class missile shooters that sunk it too

Alas, the neoliberal Banderites have been replacing honest workers with unmanned underwater drones.

 

[Pickman's model]

It was probably working class missile shooters that sunk it too

Sadly not on their own initiative

 

[maomao]

Ordinary soldiers and sailors are rather obviously working class, that's hardly some sort of gotcha observation. And while a quick Ukrainian victory almost certainly would have been in the interests of the working class of both countries, it's harder to see how a decades long grinding war of attrition between two oligarchies, one marginally more democratic, is.

 

[Pickman's model]

Tosser.


When I originally wrote it had Henry VIII instead of Richard. B4 remembering the Tudors were Welsh...Cromwell and Aurthur don't do much for Scots or Irish either. Was a fair analogy

That someone from St Petersburg can't see why Lenin and Stilin did what they did...is particaly because they weren't from Moscow or St Petersburg...

But I think he does know that deep down...there sprinkling of Hungarian folk outfits would have been different in each Soviet for example

What did the tudors - Henry vii, Henry viii, Edward vi, Mary and Elizabeth - do for the Welsh? You do know they incorporated Wales into England? Not the other way round.

 

[StoneRoad]

There were probably some working class sailors on board that ship

and probably conscripts as well ...
The Moskva's crew did.

 

[gosub]

What did the tudors - Henry vii, Henry viii, Edward vi, Mary and Elizabeth - do for the Welsh? You do know they incorporated Wales into England? Not the other way round.

Kind of the point...you could say what did Stalin do for the Georgians? Til some Russian ultlranationalist war criminal comes along half a century later saying he doesn't understand why the Soviet system was set up the way it was.


At least he didn't go as far as pointing out the Kaiser gave Lenin free passage back to Russia and call him a German ally

 

[Pickman's model]

Kind of the point...you could say what did Stalin do for the Georgians? Til some Russian ultlranationalist war criminal comes along half a century later saying he doesn't understand why the Soviet system was set up the way it was

But what you actually said makes no sense. And what you're saying now, why didn't you include the tudors. I think I'm making the mistake of expecting what you say to have some sense to it.

 

[Bannerrefuggee]

It was probably working class missile shooters that sunk it too

Training poor people how to fight back isn't a long term solution if your greedy.

I like it though

 

[gosub]

US House Speaker Johnson blocks vote on Ukraine aid passed by Senate

The Republican leader of the US House of Representatives on Tuesday blocked war aid for Ukraine, ignoring President Joe Biden's plea that passing the bill was vital for standing up to "Russian dictator"…

www.france24.com

 

[nogojones]

US House Speaker Johnson blocks vote on Ukraine aid passed by Senate

The Republican leader of the US House of Representatives on Tuesday blocked war aid for Ukraine, ignoring President Joe Biden's plea that passing the bill was vital for standing up to "Russian dictator"…

www.france24.com

Not really a shock. All the cheers after the senate passed it seemed very premature.

 

[StoneRoad]

Given that c80% of that $60bn would have gone into the American economy in one way or another, you have [well. I do] wonder how much dosh / back-handers the kremlin has been {allegedly} handing out recently.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Nazi robots sink glorious Russian humanitarian aid ship.

Interestingly the chapski that this ship was named after died on 14th February as well.

 

[redsquirrel]

And who do you think is being sent to the front lines and dying in this war?

Well obviously, workers are on the front line as both soldiers and civilians in every conflict - what's your point?

My utopian ideal would to see the workers on both sides take up arms against their officers and bosses. But that is not going to happen.
Nevertheless there are groups in both Ukraine and Russia that organise on a class struggle basis. And what those of us that believe in class struggle can do is support them as best we can - one obvious way by sharing information they provide about fascists/the hard-right, another opposing the nationalist (liberal or conservative) line.

 

[rubbershoes]

Well obviously, workers are on the front line as both soldiers and civilians in every conflict - what's your point?

My point is that a purely class based analysis misses the bigger picture that one country invaded another without any legitimate reason at all

 

[redsquirrel]

My point is that a purely class based analysis misses the bigger picture that one country invaded another without any legitimate reason at all

I'm not surprised your politics dispense with a class analysis but a class based analysis (which does not mean that other factors should not be taken into account) is the only way for any socialist to understand and take action.

 

[The39thStep]

My point is that a purely class based analysis misses the bigger picture that one country invaded another without any legitimate reason at all

Which class based analysis were you thinking of ?

 

[sleaterkinney]

Good article in the lrb:

James Meek · Two Armies in One: What now for Ukraine?

The intermittence of Western arms money is not the Ukrainian military’s only problem as it organises to do three...

www.lrb.co.uk