Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Has he heck. He and others are comparing the use of certain weapons in completely different scenarios.
Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-25
- Thread starter kebabking
- Start date
Has he heck. He and others are comparing the use of certain weapons in completely different scenarios.
kabbes
First intersubjective, then internalised
Not the weapons bit. The bit that goes, “You do love to think of yourself as the clear-headed guy who can take hard decisions that lefties won't, which, as you experience no effect or consequence, is exactly the posturing you accuse others of, just in the other direction.” Nailed on
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
In much of SE Asia there's been little to no concerted attempt to clear up the shit due to the cost involved and the antipathy of the rest of the world to do much about it. For right or wrong, this conflict is different. Most of the world is on the side of Ukraine now, and will commit to restoring the country afterwards.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Not the weapons bit. The bit that goes, “You do love to think of yourself as the clear-headed guy who can take hard decisions that lefties won't, which, as you experience no effect or consequence, is exactly the posturing you accuse others of, just in the other direction.” Nailed on
Difficult to argue with facts
maomao
普費斯
Do you have any examples of cluster bombs being cleared in a safe and timely fashion then?
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Having been done, or the possibility of it being done?
maomao
普費斯
Been done.
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
There's a clear difference between them being used by a country in another country (as the Russians are doing and the US have done) which they then leave, and their use by a country in that country, as they then are responsible for the clean-up and subsequent issues and have interests in it being done. It's not without problems, but to equate the two is lazy thinking.
Obviously all the people here really angry about their use have also been busy pressuring Russia not to use them, and post-war will spend time organising putting pressure on Russia and Ukraine to clear them up properly rather than just being angry on the internet now and forgetting about it in a bit like a bunch of over-entitled ideologues making judgements on others from a position of safety.
For those against them going to Ukraine, at least have the honesty to admit that Ukriane not getting them likely puts them at a disadvantage in this war, and that also comes with consequences, possibly much worse than even a load of kids being killed by unexploded bombs over the coming years. It's not a neutral 'no more harm done' safe position.
FWIW I have no strong opinion on the whole get them or not, it's a fucking mess with no lovely easy answers.
Obviously all the people here really angry about their use have also been busy pressuring Russia not to use them, and post-war will spend time organising putting pressure on Russia and Ukraine to clear them up properly rather than just being angry on the internet now and forgetting about it in a bit like a bunch of over-entitled ideologues making judgements on others from a position of safety.
For those against them going to Ukraine, at least have the honesty to admit that Ukriane not getting them likely puts them at a disadvantage in this war, and that also comes with consequences, possibly much worse than even a load of kids being killed by unexploded bombs over the coming years. It's not a neutral 'no more harm done' safe position.
FWIW I have no strong opinion on the whole get them or not, it's a fucking mess with no lovely easy answers.
planetgeli
There's no future in England's dreaming
Can you define what you mean by 'concerted attempt'? I think my friends in the Mines Advisory Group (MAG) who have been working in Laos since 1994 might be a bit pissed off with your statement. 30 years and they've cleared 300,000 - out of 80 million - because these things take time. Other groups such as The Halo Trust also help and have done for more than 10 years. Both organisations use local workers so I suppose you could frame it as a boom for the local economy. Pun intended.
Most of the funding for these groups come from allies of the USA in the Vietnam war who have a bit of a guilt complex. Almost none of the funding comes from the US. In my visits the top country providing aid is New Zealand ffs.
The statement you and others keep parroting about 'they've promised this, they've promised that' seems, to me, like total bollocks. This is a war, not a dropped box of Lego.
strung out
💩 🤣 🍆 💦 🧐 👻 🐝 🐈⬛
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Overhand right to the head . Still doesn’t see it coming .Not the weapons bit. The bit that goes, “You do love to think of yourself as the clear-headed guy who can take hard decisions that lefties won't, which, as you experience no effect or consequence, is exactly the posturing you accuse others of, just in the other direction.” Nailed on
maomao
普費斯
I'd rather have evidence from someone with experience of cleaning them up not firing them.
(thanks planetgeli )
ska invita
back on the other side
What Ukraine Wants = What Army Generals Want
The People are The Nation are The Army
...in case anyone was looking for a new tattoo
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Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Ok, so we agree that they can be cleared-up and it's just a question of scale.
That shit in SE Asia was dropped 20 odd years before MAG got there. If the US and other governments had immediately thrown huge resources into clearing up after the war, the situation would be very different, no? By a "concerted attempt" I mean a concerted political attempt as in the type that we'll see after this war. It's not nice, but a war in 2020s Europe is going to be treated very differently to one in 60s/70s Asia.
You cannot compare the aftermath of the indescriminate use of tens of thousands of these weapons by an attacking power in Asia 50 years ago, with that of their limited defensive use in Europe now.
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Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Very often the same organisations/people.
cupid_stunt
Where's the bloody sun?
This article on clearing cluster munitions makes an interesting read.
BiB is important in relation to Ukraine's planned use, as they will be able to map the areas where they use them, as the UK did in the Falklands. Their biggest problem is going to be clearing the ones that Russia has used in Ukraine, because Ukraine is not going to have as accurate information on where they have been used, plus the dud rate is claimed to be over 30% compared to about 2.5% for the ones the US are supplying, so a much more time consuming job.
Ukraine is going to be using the US supplied ones on the battlefields, these will be no-go areas for some years after the war, because of the sheer amount of cluster munitions already used, and thousands upon thousands of landmines, that need clearing. I am unconvinced a few more cluster munitions are going to play a massive role in the overall clear-up operation.
Whilst I am far from cheering on more cluster munitions being used, they don't seem likely to change the danger level on the actual ground by much, and if they are effective in breaking the Russian lines, and bringing forward the likely end to this bloody war, they will probably save a lot more lives, than they will take during the clearance years.
reliefweb.int
BiB is important in relation to Ukraine's planned use, as they will be able to map the areas where they use them, as the UK did in the Falklands. Their biggest problem is going to be clearing the ones that Russia has used in Ukraine, because Ukraine is not going to have as accurate information on where they have been used, plus the dud rate is claimed to be over 30% compared to about 2.5% for the ones the US are supplying, so a much more time consuming job.
Ukraine is going to be using the US supplied ones on the battlefields, these will be no-go areas for some years after the war, because of the sheer amount of cluster munitions already used, and thousands upon thousands of landmines, that need clearing. I am unconvinced a few more cluster munitions are going to play a massive role in the overall clear-up operation.
Whilst I am far from cheering on more cluster munitions being used, they don't seem likely to change the danger level on the actual ground by much, and if they are effective in breaking the Russian lines, and bringing forward the likely end to this bloody war, they will probably save a lot more lives, than they will take during the clearance years.
Clearing Cluster Munition Remnants 2020 - World
Analysis in English on World and 28 other countries about Gender, Mine Action, Epidemic and more; published on 4 Nov 2020 by HALO, MAG and 2count other organizations
kebabking
Not a Girly Swot, but I like them....
It's been done in the Falklands, by the UK.
The UK used them (BL755 air dropped cluster bombs, each with 140+ sub-munitions, for those who want to do their own research) on Stanley airport, and on the defensive positions to the south of Goose Green (possibly at Pebble Island airstrip, not certain..) in 1982 - they had a very high failure rate (40+%?) because the impact fusing system used in the sub-munition didn't have time/distance to arm between being released by the canister and hitting the ground.
The mechanics of clearing them is pretty straightforward - they contain steel, so you find them with a metal detector, they lie on the ground (they don't pentrate the surface), you plant a little flag next to them, you put a 200g lump of plastic explosive next to them, plug a wire-controled detonator in, put two sandbags over the assembly, stand 300 yards away and press the button.
Obviously that's a pretty laborious process when a) there are thousands of them, and b) you don't know where they are.
There are mechanical devices you can use - akin to the flail tanks of 1944 Normandy - which speeds things up markedly, but they are still a problem.
My eldest, now at Glasgow uni, used to play on the beach at Stanley airport where sub-munitions were cleared from. It's like anything else - anything is doable, it's just a matter of intention and resources.
A380
How do I change this 'custom title' thing then?
Oh there you go again spoiling the thread with your facts and knowledge of what can actually be achieved again. How can posters keep feeling morally superior to the Ukrainian people when you persistently do this?
Cid
Proper break this time
Have you seen any indication this is even vaguely likely?
maomao
普費斯
The UK dropped a total of 106 cluster bombs on the Falklands, an area of the world with a population density that makes rural Ukraine look like Tokyo, spent years using the couple of garrisons it has hanging around there cleaning it up and there is still cluster contamination in the Falklands. So yes, that sounds easy, should have it all sorted in a jiffy.
cupid_stunt
Where's the bloody sun?
That link is from 2009, the one in post #25608 is from 2020, and confirms that in respect of the Falklands the UK was removed from Mine Action Review’s list of affected countries in Aug. 2020.
maomao
普費斯
Well I do stand corrected. A mere thirty seven years to clear a fairly minor use of cluster munition with the help of hundreds of troops that had fuck all else to do.
Artaxerxes
Look out, he's got a gnu!
At this point this is what a good chunk of Ukraine looks like
I'm not thrilled with the use of Cluster weapons and I'd rather they weren't being used at all but they will make small to no difference in the absolute nightmare task of making the areas currently being blasted to rubble and filled with craters and bodies safe so I'm not going to treat it as a unique evil point or a reason to assume that support for the place has gone to far.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
You're making the schoolboy error of conflating the population of Ukraine with the zelensky government. Unless you've any of your actual evidence that the Ukrainian people desire cluster bombs scattered over their land by their government
ska invita
back on the other side
So my son plays on a beach, its all fine, is a fact you like, much better than those facts from the smug lefty Landmine and Cluster Munition Monitor white feather wearing saps.
Thank god for facts from our resident six figure earning ministry of war spokesperson
planetgeli
There's no future in England's dreaming
See this is the kind of thing that pisses me off. I've been called a Stalinist, then 'morally weak' now 'morally superior'.
Make your fucking minds up.
I don't feel morally superior to anyone, never have done. What does concern me, amongst many obvious things like Russian imperialism, is the use of bombs rightly banned in over half the world but nodded through on here with only faux concern ('we'll be careful', and 'it will be fine') by people who I thought knew better.
I don't think it would take much to persuade some of you lot that other banned munitions were 'fine'. And that's disappointing.
Cid
Proper break this time
And the mine fields. Yeah, sums up my feelings pretty well. Still conflicted mind you... I suspect for Sunak it's a useful point of moderation, takes eyes off UK as the leaders of escalation for a bit.
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