Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24

[Spymaster]

no, it wasn't. now, you may be thinking of the major operations. but that wasn't the war, was it, just one campaign in it.

Nah, cobs. Iraq invaded and occupied in short order, Ba'ath party fucked, Sadaam dead. That was "The War". What happened after that wasn't.

 

[bcuster]

no, it wasn't. now, you may be thinking of the major operations. but that wasn't the war, was it, just one campaign in it.

i agree with this. the Middle Easten war that started in the early 90's was a disaster for the US

 

[bcuster]

Nah, cobs. Iraq invaded and occupied in short order, Ba'ath party fucked, Sadaam dead. That was "The War". What happened after that wasn't.

the "occuaption" happened after the initial success. that was the beginning of the end

 

[Spymaster]

the "occuaption" happened after the initial success. that was the beginning of the end

The occupation wasn't the war. In terms of the military operation, Iraq and the regime were spanked shitless.

 

[Pickman's model]

Nah, cobs. Iraq invaded and occupied in short order, Ba'ath party fucked, Sadaam dead. That was "The War". What happened after that wasn't.

saddam hussein was captured in 2003 and executed in 2006. by the time he was captured the cpa had already disbanded the iraqi army, setting the stage for the insurgency to come. and certainly by 2006, when sh was hanged, the insurgencies were doing very nicely, the americans less so.

 

[bcuster]

i think both above are correct. one could argue that the mere fact russia was able to enter ukraine at all can be considered a military "success".

but victory requires a lot more than a a march into your boundaries. ask ancient carthage...

 

[Chz]

i think both above are correct. one could argue that the mere fact russia was able to enter ukraine at all can be considered a military "success".

but victory requires a lot more than a a march into your boundaries. ask ancient carthage...

Totally off topic, but your last statement reminded me... Cannae is still considered the largest single day loss of life in warfare. Plenty exceed it over time (Somme, Stalingrad) but the massacre of Roman soliders is estimated to be the most massive single day loss ever. Amongst combatants, of course. Otherwise Hiroshima and whatnot.

 

[bcuster]

Totally off topic, but your last statement reminded me... Cannae is still considered the largest single day loss of life in warfare. Plenty exceed it over time (Somme, Stalingrad) but the massacre of Roman soliders is estimated to be the most massive single day loss ever. Amongst combatants, of course. Otherwise Hiroshima and whatnot.

Adrian Goldsworthy equates the death toll at Cannae to "the massed slaughter of the British Army on the first day of the Somme offensive in 1916".[3]

 

[_Russ_]

Wake me up when the Walts have finished talking Shite

 

[Pickman's model]

Wake me up when the Walts have finished talking Shite

No one talks shite like _Russ_ talks shite

 

[existentialist]

Wake me up when the Walts have finished talking Shite

The sacrifice you must make in order to engage with so many people whom you very clearly consider to be your inferiors is worthy, and one I am sure that we unworthy types are not nearly appreciative enough of your having made.

 

[Pickman's model]

The sacrifice you must make in order to engage with so many people whom you very clearly consider to be your inferiors is worthy, and one I am sure that we unworthy types are not nearly appreciative enough of your having made.

By no means, I am very grateful for his withdrawal from this thread, temporary tho it may be

 

[TopCat]

Polish farmers threaten to ‘ruin’ Zelenskiy visit amid grain dispute

Grain producers say they are being undercut by tariff-free imports from Ukraine

www.theguardian.com

I noticed the tariff dispensations at the time but am surprised it led to this situation.

 

[Pickman's model]

Polish farmers threaten to ‘ruin’ Zelenskiy visit amid grain dispute

Grain producers say they are being undercut by tariff-free imports from Ukraine

www.theguardian.com

I noticed the tariff dispensations at the time but am surprised it led to this situation.

So are the poles

 

[TopCat]

So are the poles

The bit in the article, near the end where it mentions priority coal imports taking up the train stock. Begs a few questions as to the actual reality on the ground.

 

[Fez909]

So, this seems a bit dangerous to me:



I get that it didn't explode when it hit the road and buried itself deep into the tarmac, but I still wouldn't clean up like this. And I wouldn't be kicking it.

 

[UnderOpenSky]

Totally off topic, but your last statement reminded me... Cannae is still considered the largest single day loss of life in warfare. Plenty exceed it over time (Somme, Stalingrad) but the massacre of Roman soliders is estimated to be the most massive single day loss ever. Amongst combatants, of course. Otherwise Hiroshima and whatnot.

Isn't it really hard to tell numbers for ancient battles though as they got exaggerated so much?

 

[Bingoman]

Fire at building of Russian defense ministry in Moscow: TASS

A fire briefly broke out at a building belonging to Russia's defense ministry in the center of Moscow on Wednesday evening, Russian state news agencies

english.alarabiya.net

 

[Chz]

Isn't it really hard to tell numbers for ancient battles though as they got exaggerated so much?

It is in general, but there are so many sources for this particular one, and it's one of the most studied battles in history so the historians have a fairly confident number.

 

[spitfire]

It is in general, but there are so many sources for this particular one, and it's one of the most studied battles in history so the historians have a fairly confident number.

I read the wiki on that battle after your comment. What a palaver!

 

[mojo pixy]

Cannae believe how brutal it was

 

[Artaxerxes]

It is in general, but there are so many sources for this particular one, and it's one of the most studied battles in history so the historians have a fairly confident number.

It's because it's clearly a massive and total defeat and we know the approximate size of a consular army. Generally 15-25% losses are expected in a defeat in that era but the sources are all clear that pretty much the entire thing got wiped out.

There some debate as to whether it was multiple or single armies fudged together on the Roman side so we stil don't know exact numbers but even the lowest possible figures say it was a huge loss of thousands

 

[spitfire]

Cannae believe how brutal it was

Too soon man, too soon.

 

[agricola]

It's because it's clearly a massive and total defeat and we know the approximate size of a consular army. Generally 15-25% losses are expected in a defeat in that era but the sources are all clear that pretty much the entire thing got wiped out.

There some debate as to whether it was multiple or single armies fudged together on the Roman side so we stil don't know exact numbers but even the lowest possible figures say it was a huge loss of thousands

It was certainly seen as a huge defeat - most of Rome's allies did abandon them afterwards and had to be beaten back into submission over the next few years - but whether it was a massacre (at least of Romans) on the scale alleged in the sources is another question.

I mean, Rome was back up and running very quickly afterwards, none of the surviving officers (especially Varro who the sources uniformly blame for the disaster) were punished at the time, and although its nowhere like as serious as it would be now to re-equip forces after a loss on the scale described would have been a huge undertaking even for a state as militarized as the Roman Republic was. Then there is the army that Scipio took to Africa later - which was composed of survivors of Cannae being punished (and other battles), which presumably were not the 10000 or so who broke through the Carthaginian lines with Scipio.

I also think there is a good comparison to be made between the relative lack of social impact after the apparent death of such a significant proportion of Rome's manpower with the rather greater social impact of deaths from Arausio and other defeats in that war - which led to massive changes in the short term (by Marius) and then decades of civil strife culminating in the fall of the republic itself.

The loss of one of the two consular armies is more likely I think, with many of the "lost" army being captured rather than killed (and then released in ignominy and exiled to Sicily, where Scipio found them).

 

[Pickman's model]

Cannae believe how brutal it was

It was zama victory for the carthaginians

 

[DaveCinzano]

Totally off topic, but your last statement reminded me... Cannae is still considered the largest single day loss of life in warfare.

 

[two sheds]

It was certainly seen as a huge defeat - most of Rome's allies did abandon them afterwards and had to be beaten back into submission over the next few years - but whether it was a massacre (at least of Romans) on the scale alleged in the sources is another question.

I mean, Rome was back up and running very quickly afterwards, none of the surviving officers (especially Varro who the sources uniformly blame for the disaster) were punished at the time, and although its nowhere like as serious as it would be now to re-equip forces after a loss on the scale described would have been a huge undertaking even for a state as militarized as the Roman Republic was. Then there is the army that Scipio took to Africa later - which was composed of survivors of Cannae being punished (and other battles), which presumably were not the 10000 or so who broke through the Carthaginian lines with Scipio.

I also think there is a good comparison to be made between the relative lack of social impact after the apparent death of such a significant proportion of Rome's manpower with the rather greater social impact of deaths from Arausio and other defeats in that war - which led to massive changes in the short term (by Marius) and then decades of civil strife culminating in the fall of the republic itself.

The loss of one of the two consular armies is more likely I think, with many of the "lost" army being captured rather than killed (and then released in ignominy and exiled to Sicily, where Scipio found them).

Interesting. Was almost in living memory for you, even older than Sas

 

[kebabking]

Interesting. Was almost in living memory for you, even older than Sas

Sas is the First, eldest. Sas was awake before the first sunrise. He has had many names...

 

[cupid_stunt]

This doesn't surprise me, I always thought regaining Crimea would be ideal, but unlikely.

Ukraine willing to discuss future of Crimea if its forces reach border – FT​

Ukraine has made what the Financial Times calls its “most explicit statement of Ukraine’s interest in negotiations” since cutting off peace talks last year in April, saying that it is willing to discuss the future of Crimea.

In an interview with the Financial Times, Andriy Sybiha, deputy head of Zelenskiy’s office, said: “If we will succeed in achieving our strategic goals on the battlefield and when we will be on the administrative border with Crimea, we are ready to open [a] diplomatic page to discuss this issue.” “It doesn’t mean that we exclude the way of liberation [of Crimea] by our army.”

The FT report continues:

Sybiha’s remarks may relieve western officials who are sceptical about Ukraine’s ability to reclaim the peninsula and worry that any attempt to do so militarily could lead Vladimir Putin to escalate his war, possibly with nuclear weapons. To date, Zelenskiy has ruled out peace talks until Russian forces leave all of Ukraine, including Crimea. Sybiha is a veteran diplomat who focuses on foreign policy in the president’s office and has been at Zelenskiy’s side at key moments in the war. He said the president and his aides were now talking specifically about Crimea, as Ukraine’s army gets closer to launching its counteroffensive to regain territory.

LINK

 

[nogojones]

So, this seems a bit dangerous to me:



I get that it didn't explode when it hit the road and buried itself deep into the tarmac, but I still wouldn't clean up like this. And I wouldn't be kicking it.

Yeah. To dislodge something that big embedded in the road out, you need to twat it with a big sledge hammer to get a bit more wiggle room.