Did Lammy really say "diktat by plebiscite"? Fucking hell 
UK Votes to Leave EU
- Thread starter Ponyutd
- Start date
krtek a houby
Merry Xmas!
I feel like I've crossed over to a Fringe style alternative Earth. And it's not exciting; it's awful. Not talking about reaction here - am talking about the rise of hate crime post Brexit 
Anju
Well-Known Member
Whatever happens now will not be good. I voted remain but would not want the referendum result to be ignored. What seems most likely is that we will end up with a worse deal than we currently have with an even worse PM. This is not what people who voted leave wanted, as far as I can tell, and will leave the same divisions as rejection of the result.
Could we have a how to proceed after the referendum referendum. Have 3 choices, all of which have a website with honest comprehensive FACTS and figures, perhaps presented with the help of people from the world of education. No media coverage other than daily reminders to vote. Run some consultation groups to check people can understand the information provided.
The choices would be.
Leave, no EU freedom of movement. Trade deal with EU.
Leave but keep freedom of movement and be part of EEA.
Stay in.
Seems like a fair way to proceed and gives us a chance to choose based on facts.
Could we have a how to proceed after the referendum referendum. Have 3 choices, all of which have a website with honest comprehensive FACTS and figures, perhaps presented with the help of people from the world of education. No media coverage other than daily reminders to vote. Run some consultation groups to check people can understand the information provided.
The choices would be.
Leave, no EU freedom of movement. Trade deal with EU.
Leave but keep freedom of movement and be part of EEA.
Stay in.
Seems like a fair way to proceed and gives us a chance to choose based on facts.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Ah people from the world of education. People who voted overwhelmingly stay, you mean.
There aren't objective ways to present facts on this - the facts need to be presented as part of an argument, and an argument requires a point of view. What you suggest here is not democracy. It's rule by technocrats.
There aren't objective ways to present facts on this - the facts need to be presented as part of an argument, and an argument requires a point of view. What you suggest here is not democracy. It's rule by technocrats.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Who would be we given your earlier posts about 'real europeans?'
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Jim crow-lite.
free spirit
more tea vicar?
I increasingly think this is going to be needed as well.
So many people seem to have voted for an option that's very unlikely to exist - leaving the EU, keeping access to the common market, and stopping freedom of movement, paying into the EU, and EU laws having sway in the UK.
Once there are clear options negotiated for exit, there should be another referendum to determine which of the actual worked out detailed options on the table people want to happen.
And I suspect once people really understand that they won't be able to both have their cake and eat it, the result will be significantly different.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
The sun king demands jim crow.
moochedit
I'm not feeding seagulls
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Let's all try and get behind this.
Quite a bold declaration though. Diplomatic minefield if she wants to nip abroad mind you. Good luck to her not paying the taxes
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Sorry, I've read that again, and this is exactly what 'ignoring the referendum result' looks like.
free spirit
more tea vicar?
what version of leave did the majority just vote for?
Anju
Well-Known Member
Go to Spain, Portugal, Italy, Holland and they have a more relaxed tactile easygoing attitude. Watch the end of Italy v Spain and the way the players react to each other then watch the end of England v Iceland and our p!ayers slump to the ground being moody. Spain have a lot less practice losing but seem to be better at it. When I think of Europe I see cafe dwelling easy going happy people. No idea why this offends you. I have been to places in Europe where there are a lot of English holiday makers and been embarrassed to be English.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Purple aki for the eu.
You're an idiot - judging who is real europeans on if they touch you loads or not.
Anju
Well-Known Member
I don't see any other way to sort things out. You can present facts. Trade figures, size of immigrant population, contribution v funding, types of finding, alternatives to funding, long term goals history of economic performance. I'm sure there are plenty more but I don't have time to spend thinking about things now.
The leave voters were lied to, as were the remain voters, though to a lesser extent in my opinion. Whatever happens now will be damaging whether the government ignores the result or stays in the EEA as seems likely. Im sure you heard what Boris was saying today.
Anju
Well-Known Member
I don't see any other way to sort things out. You can present facts. Trade figures, size of immigrant population, contribution v funding, types of finding, alternatives to funding, long term goals, history of economic performance in and out of EU, similar nations not in EU and their economic and social policies.. I'm sure there are plenty more but I don't have time to spend thinking about things now.
The leave voters were lied to, as were the remain voters, though to a lesser extent in my opinion. Whatever happens now will be damaging whether the government ignores the result or stays in the EEA as seems likely. Im sure you heard what Boris was saying today.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
A crash course in post-democracy for the electorate.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
It's almost like they had independent political principles that weren't yours.
What if they got their disgusting figures from a non-approved source?
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
All of which start from a particular position, feed into a particular argument: namely, how do we keep this capitalist machine rolling? Where is the democracy in that?
How about wealth and inequality, who owns what and how we can take things back into public ownership to be run for the collective good? What about the wider position of the UK in the world and where, how and indeed if we might want borders to be enforced.
What you are suggesting is a set of facts framed by and for the ruling elite. It's a BBC-style 'impartiality', which is of course nothing of the sort.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
It starts from very different positions. Horrible ones you seem to have missed.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
The 'facts' start from that position, no? What have I missed.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
That there is a group of people who, by deint of their views, need to be policed and restricted. Until, under instruction, they become real people for the first time.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Ah right. Yes, you are right about that.
oryx
Sitting on the bok of the day
Surely though there are some pretty indisputable facts - such as which laws we make ourselves and areas where we are subject to EU directives?
Also ONS figures?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
JIm crow
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Are the conclusions to be drawn from this indisputable? You have just been told by a lot of people that they don't fucking care.
oryx
Sitting on the bok of the day
The way I see it, it's about people being able to make an informed choice rather than be subject to propaganda from both camps.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
They just did. It's now actually about people like you claiming other people were victims because they passed up on the opp of agreeing with you.
Anju
Well-Known Member
I have no ideology that I follow. I would like the world to be as fair as possible but know it will never be perfect. The referendum was held and the result was very close. It certainly seems like people were misinformed so I don't think the result is an accurate reflection of people's hopes for the future so the actions we take will not be successful in the minds of the winners or the losers. In other words we all lose.
There are objective facts that can be given to give everyone a choice in how we proceed. You mention inequality and there are figures available that to me seem realistic. I assume you base your opinions on what you perceive to be good quality information. Worldwide inequality is reducing but in the UK it increasing. Although there will be no completely accurate figures we can still look at countries similar to the UK that have fairer society's and what social policies they have to help achieve this and how much of it is related to the economy. Whether we like it or not business will need to be part of any solutions. Why not look at which countries are best at collecting tax from businesses and how much this affects equality.
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