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UK Votes to Leave EU

oryx said:
A referendum, which can be seen as the ultimate in people power, should have been done after an independent inquest into the value of the EU to the British people, its worth, its advantages and disadvantages.
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who would have carried out this inquest - what would it mean for it to be 'independent'?

who are the British people? are all our interests compatible? is the interest of capital the interest of labour? or, more likely, would any inquest have ignored the views of working class people in favour of lecturing about the gdp, the market, the worth to business, how much eu money 'goes to' pro-leave areas, etc - after all, I think we all know what neutrality means in the eyes of the political class.
 
oryx said:
The entire Brexit/Bremain issue was turned into a political football by opportunists seeking to further their own careers (I'm looking especially hard at you, Johnson and Farage).

A referendum, which can be seen as the ultimate in people power, should have been done after an independent inquest into the value of the EU to the British people, its worth, its advantages and disadvantages.

The vote has taken place in a context of half-truths and promises made for political gain (the £350 million for the NHS, the UKIP poster etc.) where people struggle to make an informed choice.

It can't have been that difficult for the government to take a considered approach and to put forward independently validated facts about what we pay to the EU and what we receive, and the constitutional implications for Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales if (as has obviously happened in Scotland and NI) they choose against the majority to remain.

Instead, people have made choices based on interpretations of the truth by careerist politicians and the media.
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An inquest traditionally carried out after a death
 
mk12 said:
There's a strong assumption here, and among remain supporters more generally, that the official leave campaign duped leave voters. If only voters were given the 'facts', the objective truth, the reality of the EU, then things would have turned out differently. But from my experience, people made up their own minds about the referendum without listening to Johnson, Cameron, Gove, Farage et al.
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I think that factual enlightenment might have made a difference. Unfortunately, it would have had to have been consistently delivered over the course of the last 40 years or so.
 
Cameron, Osborne, Johnson, Gove, May: all nowhere to be seen. I presumed the Tories were still running the country in some way or another.

Cameron reportedly said as he resigned... "Why should I do all the hard s**t?"
Your referendum Cameron. You were PM. Own it.

Corbyn: trying to desperately steer something at a time when Labour should and need to be capitalising on the whole mess, and yet being shafted already by the right of the party - the likes of Benn and Hunt. The overnight sacking of Benn has since led to Alexander now running away from it all too. More shadow cabinet might be to come.

The utter moral bankruptcy of our politicians.
 
Tory leadership contest , labour just about to have one and the country divided as I've never seen it before. Can't imagine what is around the corner now and I don't see that it's going to be reconciled any time soon. Fragmentation giving ideal circumstances for the rise of extremist politics, all thanks to those idiots Cameron and Gideon.
 
Knew the labour right would make a serious attempt at some point. Picked their crises I suppose.This is why no amount of 'but the tories' can ever get me to vote for them.

I hope osbournes crying into his wine
 
So what do the Lexiteers need to do now to avoid being drowned out by the ascendant right wing voice in the new Tory cabinet and the division in society that leave has created or at least brought to the fore?
 
stethoscope said:
Cameron, Osborne, Johnson, Gove, May: all nowhere to be seen. I presumed the Tories were still running the country in some way or another.

Cameron reportedly said as he resigned... "Why should I do all the hard s**t?"
Your referendum Cameron. You were PM. Own it.
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Nowhere to be seen because they have to deal with the disastrousness of their own wish fulfilment. I blame Cameron for bringing this shit about but not really for washing his hands of the outcome - it's Leave's to own. And it turns out noone wants to. Amazing.
 
Biscuitician said:
So what do the Lexiteers need to do now to avoid being drowned out by the ascendant right wing voice in the new Tory cabinet and the division in society that leave has created or at least brought to the fore?
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Push for an early election. Might not even have to push all that hard. The new Tory leader may want a fresh mandate and it's by no means certain that they'd get another majority with the way they're split.
 
magneze said:
Push for an early election. Might not even have to push all that hard. The new Tory leader may want a fresh mandate and it's by no means certain that they'd get another majority with the way they're split.
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I can see how a general election would go rn if Labour don't have it in their manifesto to reduce EU immigration as part of the negotiations :(
 
Biscuitician said:
What about concerns regarding immigration?
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It appears that wasn't why most people voted Leave (see specific charts on this elsewhere). There's little evidence that a "pull the drawbridge up" policy is what people voted for and so it's unlikely that any party would campaign on it.
 
weltweit said:
Is that ALL labour areas? all the areas in the graphic voted for brexit, is it really saying that no labour areas voted remain?
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There are various Labour-supporting areas I can think of which aren't included and which voted to Remain, particularly in London, so I'm going to suggest that it's only Labour areas which supported Leave.

Even though this graphic is incomplete/misleading, it's generally true that "traditional" Labour supporters (to the extent we can even use that term anymore) tended to vote to Leave.

Whatever exactly we think that means, this is certainly an issue which will need to be addressed.
 
magneze said:
It appears that wasn't why most people voted Leave (see specific charts on this elsewhere). There's little evidence that a "pull the drawbridge up" policy is what people voted for and so it's unlikely that any party would campaign on it.
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Can you point me towards those charts please because I haven't seen them and it is of interest!
 
The other interesting thing about those is that the number 1 reason people chose to remain was the "risk of leaving" rather than any particular affinity with the EU. In talking to people here in London, that's certainly the feeling I got. Few said they were voting for the EU amongst people who voted Remain, in fact many were highly critical. Whilst there are a lot of people who have been wailing on Facebook about it, considering the lukewarm support the EU had even amongst the Remainers, is it really so surprising that Leave won?
 
andysays said:
There are various Labour-supporting areas I can think of which aren't included and which voted to Remain, particularly in London, so I'm going to suggest that it's only Labour areas which supported Leave.

Even though this graphic is incomplete/misleading, it's generally true that "traditional" Labour supporters (to the extent we can even use that term anymore) tended to vote to Leave.

Whatever exactly we think that means, this is certainly an issue which will need to be addressed.
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Not sure that's true. The stat I heard was that the proportion of "labour voters" who voted leave was the same as the proportion of "SNP voters".

It's in that Lord ashcroft thing.
 
weltweit said:
I have a problem with that specific one which I have seen before.
Namely that it is title is: "Please can you rank the following ... " indicating a question not an answer.
It also shows all leave voters preferences were the same and immigration was in second place! hardly of no importance!
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I agree that the way it's presented is pretty simplistic - would be interesting to see the full range of possible answers and the percentages of who agreed with all of them rather than just a ranking of the top three.

It still contradicts the crude suggestion that immigration was the number-one reason for voting to Leave, so it does tell us something
 
weltweit said:
I have a problem with that specific one which I have seen before.
Namely that it is title is: "Please can you rank the following ... " indicating a question not an answer.
It also shows all leave voters preferences were the same and immigration was in second place! hardly of no importance!
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Where does it show that "all leave voters preferences were the same"?
 
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