UK Votes to Leave EU

[weltweit]

Where does it show that "all leave voters preferences were the same"?

On the right it shows leave voters.
It shows total and labour and tory voters.
It shows their top 3 reasons for voting leave.
Labour and tory voters voting leave both have the same 1,2 & 3 reasons.

 

[magneze]

On the right it shows leave voters.
It shows total and labour and tory voters.
It shows their top 3 reasons for voting leave.
Labour and tory voters voting leave both have the same 1,2 & 3 reasons.

It doesn't show "all leave voters preferences were the same". That's something different and it quite clearly doesn't say that at all.

 

[andysays]

Not sure that's true. The stat I heard was that the proportion of "labour voters" who voted leave was the same as the proportion of "SNP voters".

It's in that Lord ashcroft thing.

Maybe I'm mistaken then. Do you have a link?

But note that I said "traditional Labour voters", which is not the same as "people who voted Labour at the last election", even though I thought it was true for that latter group as well.

The difference is not just hair-splitting; part of the reason Labour has lost support is because it's been seen as out of step with its traditional supporters on this (and other) issues.

 

[SpookyFrank]

The other interesting thing about those is that the number 1 reason people chose to remain was the "risk of leaving" rather than any particular affinity with the EU. In talking to people here in London, that's certainly the feeling I got. Few said they were voting for the EU amongst people who voted Remain, in fact many were highly critical. Whilst there are a lot of people who have been wailing on Facebook about it, considering the lukewarm support the EU had even amongst the Remainers, is it really so surprising that Leave won?

I may be the only person in the country who voted remain and is now glad that leave won. Just the very fact that we're in a position where a huge chunk of our economy can vanish overnight if people vote the 'wrong' way shows that shit needs to change. We were effectively being blackmailed into staying and it's never a good idea to give in to that kind of shit.

Workers rights, freedom of movement, a working health service; if we want this stuff we should fight for it, not just sit there and hope that some benevolent guiding hand will take care of it for us. If we really have 'taken back control' of this country' then we must actually take responsibility for what happens in it.

 

[weltweit]

It doesn't show "all leave voters preferences were the same". That's something different and it quite clearly doesn't say that at all.

You can't deny that is shows:
"Labour and tory voters voting leave both have the same 1,2 & 3 reasons."

 

[andysays]

It doesn't show "all leave voters preferences were the same". That's something different and it quite clearly doesn't say that at all.

I don't think that's what weltweit is saying, he's saying that the top three reasons Labour supporters gave are the same as the top three reasons Conservative supporters gave, whatever that's worth

 

[tommers]

Maybe I'm mistaken then. Do you have a link?

But note that I said "traditional Labour voters", which is not the same as "people who voted Labour at the last election", even though I thought it was true for that latter group as well.

The difference is not just hair-splitting; part of the reason Labour has lost support is because it's been seen as out of step with its traditional supporters on this (and other) issues.

Here, second section down

How the United Kingdom voted on Thursday... and why - Lord Ashcroft Polls

Interesting that one is being given as a mandate for independence and the other as a betrayal of a party by its leader.

Funny that 4% of UKIP voted to remain

 

[andysays]

Here, second section down

How the United Kingdom voted on Thursday... and why - Lord Ashcroft Polls

Interesting that one is being given as a mandate for independence and the other as a betrayal of a party by its leader.

OK, I stand corrected on that point, but my wider point about Labour's loss of traditional supporters still stands

 

[magneze]

I don't think that's what weltweit is saying, he's saying that the top three reasons Labour supporters gave are the same as the top three reasons Conservative supporters gave, whatever that's worth

Yes, it shows that.

 

[Falcon]

As matters stand Cameron's successor would have quite a struggle with the parliamentary arithmetic to pursue the legislative course you suggest. But perhaps you could identify how you foresee the slim tory majority allowing this radical departure working.

Early re-election fuelled by triumphalism and euphoria giving a strengthened majority. I will concede that as the full horror of what the Brexiters voted for begins to sink in, this is now less likely. This is because Brexit is now a recognisable catastrophe, not because it is a success.

You clearly were not with us in 2002/2003

Hmmm. The addition of a second example is not a refutation of the first.

 

[Biscuitician]

It appears that wasn't why most people voted Leave (see specific charts on this elsewhere). There's little evidence that a "pull the drawbridge up" policy is what people voted for and so it's unlikely that any party would campaign on it.

But the second biggest reason is to control our own borders. The first reason regards making laws in the UK.

It's entire possible that the reasons informing both points could be, at worst, informed by the xenophobic dog whistle that's been blowing for years now. "Foreigners" making decisions about our crisps, carrots and employment.

 

[Pickman's model]

Hmmm. The addition of a second example is not a refutation of the first.

You concluded on the basis if but one example we are in an era of 'post-politics, or bigotry'. It is my submission we have been there for many years already.

 

[magneze]

But the second biggest reason is to control our own borders. The first reason regards making laws in the UK.

It's entire possible that the reasons informing both points could be, at worst, informed by the xenophobic dog whistle that's been blowing for years now. "Foreigners" making decisions about our crisps, carrots and employment.

At worst, a lot of things could be said. It's rarely the case though.

 

[Falcon]

Important comment in the Guardian yesterday (I can’t get a permalink to work, so here it is on reddit) to the effect that Cameron killed Johnson and Gove when he committed suicide on Friday:

... as the day wore on, the enormity of that step started to sink in: the markets, Sterling, Scotland, the Irish border, the Gibraltar border, the frontier at Calais, the need to continue compliance with all EU regulations for a free market, re-issuing passports, Brits abroad, EU citizens in Britain, the mountain of legistlation to be torn up and rewritten ... the list grew and grew ...

... The Conservative party election that Cameron triggered will now have one question looming over it: will you, if elected as party leader, trigger the notice under Article 50? Who will want to have the responsibility of all those ramifications and consequences on his/her head and shoulders?

Boris Johnson knew this yesterday, when he emerged subdued from his home and was even more subdued at the press conference. He has been out-maneouvered and check-mated. If he runs for leadership of the party, and then fails to follow through on triggering Article 50, then he is finished. If he does not run and effectively abandons the field, then he is finished. If he runs, wins and pulls the UK out of the EU, then it will all be over - Scotland will break away, there will be upheaval in Ireland, a recession ... broken trade agreements. Then he is also finished. Boris Johnson knows all of this. When he acts like the dumb blond it is just that: an act.

The Brexit leaders now have a result that they cannot use. For them, leadership of the Tory party has become a poison chalice.

 

[Falcon]

You concluded on the basis if but one example we are in an era of 'post-politics, or bigotry'. It is my submission we have been there for many years already.

Conceded.

 

[butchersapron]

Early re-election fuelled by triumphalism and euphoria giving a strengthened majority. I will concede that as the full horror of what the Brexiters voted for begins to sink in, this is now less likely. This is because Brexit is now a recognisable catastrophe, not because it is a success.


Hmmm. The addition of a second example is not a refutation of the first.

To be fair, before your anti-semitic breakdown, you were predicting in a similarly confident manner, that we would all be dead by now.

 

[Biscuitician]

If movement is going to be limited due to us leaving, how will that affect activism and solidarity actions between communities?

 

[Falcon]

To be fair, before your anti-semitic breakdown, you were predicting in a similarly confident manner, that we would all be dead by now.

And, to be fair, you were retreating to ad-hominem attack as a substitute for argument. I see urban75 hasn’t changed much while I’ve been away, but it’s nice to be back. I’m surprised you haven’t attempted to contort this into anti-semitism - the lack of any particular correspondence has never deterred you in the past.

 

[Falcon]

One of the experts that Archmoron Gove encouraged Brexiters to ignore: Michael Dougan, Professor of European Law at the University of Liverpool, debunking ‘industrial scale’ exit myths and setting out the practical implications of leaving.

 

[2hats]

One of the experts

Apparently we don't need experts anymore. Or facts.

 

[chilango]

I don't think that's what weltweit is saying, he's saying that the top three reasons Labour supporters gave are the same as the top three reasons Conservative supporters gave, whatever that's worth

It's not worth anything. I took part in that survey. We were presented with a list of 3 pre-determined options and had to rank them.

 

[Anju]

I may be the only person in the country who voted remain and is now glad that leave won. Just the very fact that we're in a position where a huge chunk of our economy can vanish overnight if people vote the 'wrong' way shows that shit needs to change. We were effectively being blackmailed into staying and it's never a good idea to give in to that kind of shit.

Workers rights, freedom of movement, a working health service; if we want this stuff we should fight for it, not just sit there and hope that some benevolent guiding hand will take care of it for us. If we really have 'taken back control' of this country' then we must actually take responsibility for what happens in it.

Not really sure we were being blackmailed. We entered in agreements that were beneficial to all parties and therefore there are bound to be some negatives for us. The only problem I saw is that there may be some costly inefficiencies in the administration of the EU. I quite like the way money was allocated for economic development so that it targeted the poorest regions. I was happy for Wales, Cornwall and the NE to get money and also for some of our contribution to go to poor areas in other countries. Long term plans for economic development are not really the strong point of our desperate to get elected governments.

Taking back control worries me because I don't trust our government to always operate in the interests of the people and to an extent the EU does, mostly because there are member nations who have governments that do care for their people or have better economic policies. A great example of this is France blocking TTIP. Out of the EU our government would have signed up without hesitation.

 

[killer b]

beneficial to all parties is... questionable. That's why the blackmail didn't work.

 

[Steel Icarus]

This 38 Degrees petition to "make the government keep their promise to spend £350m on the NHS"...did anyone actually promise this? I saw it equated to the cost of a new hospital, and also the figure alongside "we'd rather spend money on our NHS" which isn't the same as "we'd rather spend THAT money on the NHS"...

 

[elbows]

Larry Elliot in the Guardian going for the 'rejection of globalisation' angle.

Brexit is a rejection of globalisation

 

[weltweit]

This 38 Degrees petition to "make the government keep their promise to spend £350m on the NHS"...did anyone actually promise this? I saw it equated to the cost of a new hospital, and also the figure alongside "we'd rather spend money on our NHS" which isn't the same as "we'd rather spend THAT money on the NHS"...

It wasn't a government promise, the official leave campaign wasn't the government, but Johnson was photographed next to a banner saying why not spend the 350m pw on the NHS. I have posted the tweet somewhere in here.

 

[Pickman's model]

It wasn't a government promise, the official leave campaign wasn't the government, but Johnson was photographed next to a banner saying why not spend the 350m pw on the NHS. I have posted the tweet somewhere in here.

Yeh but did you link to the tweet, which may have been deleted, or get a screengrab of it?

 

[Pickman's model]

This 38 Degrees petition to "make the government keep their promise to spend £350m on the NHS"...did anyone actually promise this? I saw it equated to the cost of a new hospital, and also the figure alongside "we'd rather spend money on our NHS" which isn't the same as "we'd rather spend THAT money on the NHS"...

This would fuck the farmers who are expecting a post-Brexit government to continue stumping up subsidies

 

[weltweit]

Yeh but did you link to the tweet, which may have been deleted, or get a screengrab of it?

I linked to it.

 

[Pickman's model]

I linked to it.

Pls go and get a screengrab of it