UK Votes to Leave EU

[brogdale]

Let's try a knock knock joke; you know how those work, do you?

I reckon Pickman's model must have taken refreshment last evening...he's not so sharp today!

 

[Pickman's model]

I reckon Pickman's model must have taken refreshment last evening...he's not so sharp today!

I thought it yet another eusplaining article so didn't bother clicking on it, a mistake in retrospect

 

[brogdale]

I thought it yet another eusplaining article so didn't bother clicking on it, a mistake in retrospect

Absence of any denial noted.

 

[Wilf]

Cameron explicitly ruled himself out from delivering the instruction of the electorate. It is their intention that this will only be undertaken by a new vermin leader & PM. Obviously this is counter to the interests of the EU.

​

I'm sure this isn't quite how Johnson saw his premiership starting off. He might not have actually shit himself since Thursday, but I bet he's had to swallow back the sick a couple of times.

 

[Biscuitician]

So Cameron's quit. What about Gideon? Will he remain as chancellor or will have brexit before being possibly replaced by Boris?

 

[bi0boy]

So Cameron's quit. What about Gideon? Will he remain as chancellor or will have brexit before being possibly replaced by Boris?

Of course he will quit, even if he waits for the new leader to sack him for stability and continuity reasons.

 

[Biscuitician]

Boris enjoys new levels of popularity. I look forward to his claim for premiership:

 

[Poi E]

That might be an option for the Germans, but it isn't likely to be an option for many of the others.

So a good chance then. Also I'm trying to think of an industry in the UK that does not exist in Germany, France or Italy. Cars, construction/civil engineering, financial services, shipbuilding, aerospace, arms, pharmaceuticals and chems, consumer goods, electronics, farming, nuclear, renewables.

Edit. There is one. Oil. In Scotland. Oh, and whisky.

 

[Combustible]

Brinsanity

Well done guys

What's nauseating is using the murder of Jo Cox to tar everyone who voted to leave.

 

[realitybites]

Throughout the referendum, how a brexit outcome could impact on our relationship with Scotland and Ireland was not very well covered. Personally I voted to exit, but would never of done so had I known it would effect our relationship across these borders. It would be nuts to continue with brexit if it meant a devolution of the United Kingdom.. This is surely ground for a serious reconsider is it not??

 

[weltweit]

Throughout the referendum, how a brexit outcome could impact on our relationship with Scotland and Ireland was not very well covered. Personally I voted to exit, but would never of done so had I known it would effect our relationship across these borders. It would be nuts to continue with brexit if it meant a devolution of the United Kingdom.. This is surely ground for a serious reconsider is it not??

It was clear that this might happen.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

how a brexit outcome could impact on our relationship with Scotland and Ireland was not very well covered

I certainly saw things somewhere in the media about both before the vote.

Different bits of the media did / didn't pick up on a lot of the whole thing - some seemed to be saying "immigrants, immigrants, immigrants" and not a lot else. most ignored anything jeremy corbyn said, and only mentioned him in terms of blairites complaining that he wasn't (being reported as) saying very much...

 

[Doctor Carrot]

Throughout the referendum, how a brexit outcome could impact on our relationship with Scotland and Ireland was not very well covered. Personally I voted to exit, but would never of done so had I known it would effect our relationship across these borders. It would be nuts to continue with brexit if it meant a devolution of the United Kingdom.. This is surely ground for a serious reconsider is it not??

It was mentioned plenty of times, particularly in Scotland's case. Even before a referendum the SNP made it crystal clear another referendum would be on the cards if they were taken out of the EU against their will. Well, here we are.

 

[weltweit]

What Sturgeon said was that if Scotland voted in and the rest of the UK voted out that would be a material change of circumstances which could justify a second Scottish independence referendum.

 

[Poi E]

But those indy Scots want to remain under the neo-lib yoke of the EU. What the fuck is with that?

 

[gosub]

Throughout the referendum, how a brexit outcome could impact on our relationship with Scotland and Ireland was not very well covered. Personally I voted to exit, but would never of done so had I known it would effect our relationship across these borders. It would be nuts to continue with brexit if it meant a devolution of the United Kingdom.. This is surely ground for a serious reconsider is it not??

Problem we got is 2 inside single market options available one potentially 'might' stop freedom of movement -would most likely cost defo Ireland and probably Scotland - yet tories and Labour don't have much to gain from keeping them in terms of party politics and plays into SNP hands. BUT it potentially enhances similar fractal divisions within other member states, so hopefully EU will block. Scotland as a separate EFTA member could have worked but she's said it now.

 

[realitybites]

Exciting times.. So potentially we could see a huge shift of power from the capital to move north and a portion of its business / economic market resettle in EU Scotland?

 

[gosub]

Exciting times.. So potentially we could see a huge shift of power from the capital to move north and a portion of its business / economic market resettle in EU Scotland?

nope Frankfurt would still nick finance off both rUK and Scotland due to their regs, Rosyth aint a good enough port either

 

[Wilhelmina.Trav]

Exciting times.. So potentially we could see a huge shift of power from the capital to move north and a portion of its business / economic market resettle in EU Scotland?

Will be interesting to see what happens.

Evey

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

Problem we got is 2 inside single market options available one potentially 'might' stop freedom of movement -would most likely cost defo Ireland and probably Scotland - yet tories and Labour don't have much to gain from keeping them in terms of party politics and plays into SNP hands. BUT it potentially enhances similar fractal divisions within other member states, so hopefully EU will block. Scotland as a separate EFTA member could have worked but she's said it now.

Unless I've missed something she said it was one option on the table and today it says she's lobbying to stay in the bloc, don't think she's keen on 2nd Indy ref? Unless I've picked you up wrong ?

 

[brogdale]

Mason's ProgrExit (yes, really) musings tonight.

More Labour stuff with a bit of LibDemmery for good measure!

 

[gosub]

Unless I've missed something she said it was one option on the table and today it says she's lobbying to stay in the bloc, don't think she's keen on 2nd Indy ref? Unless I've picked you up wrong ?

The option on the table is a scottish referendum and talk of a backdoor deal (as yet agreed by no one). The UK-EU deal nothing on table (yet) the two inside single markets are potential. Plus an early offer coming out of Berlin of associate - which is what we were headed for if we staying in anyway.

 

[Coolfonz]

Mason's ProgrExit (yes, really) musings tonight.

More Labour stuff with a bit of LibDemmery for good measure!

"the progressive half of British politics we need a plan to put our stamp on the Brexit result – and fast."
Desperate.

 

[oryx]

The entire Brexit/Bremain issue was turned into a political football by opportunists seeking to further their own careers (I'm looking especially hard at you, Johnson and Farage).

A referendum, which can be seen as the ultimate in people power, should have been done after an independent inquest into the value of the EU to the British people, its worth, its advantages and disadvantages.

The vote has taken place in a context of half-truths and promises made for political gain (the £350 million for the NHS, the UKIP poster etc.) where people struggle to make an informed choice.

It can't have been that difficult for the government to take a considered approach and to put forward independently validated facts about what we pay to the EU and what we receive, and the constitutional implications for Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales if (as has obviously happened in Scotland and NI) they choose against the majority to remain.

Instead, people have made choices based on interpretations of the truth by careerist politicians and the media.

 

[Falcon]

How did EU membership prevent NHS privatisation or tax reform (well apart from preventing lowering of VAT)?

Two things have taken place: departure from the EU; and Cameron’s collapse. Cameron’s replacement will be far more right wing. Under those more right wing policies, workers rights and tax reform will be weakened.

 

[Falcon]

Appalling tosh. So voting to leave the EU is anti- intellectual?

Gove coaching Brexit’ers to ignore expert opinion was about as close to a text-book definition of anti-intellectual as is possible to get. Democracy has entered a post-factual stage i.e. bigotry.

 

[mk12]

The entire Brexit/Bremain issue was turned into a political football by opportunists seeking to further their own careers (I'm looking especially hard at you, Johnson and Farage).

A referendum, which can be seen as the ultimate in people power, should have been done after an independent inquest into the value of the EU to the British people, its worth, its advantages and disadvantages.

The vote has taken place in a context of half-truths and promises made for political gain (the £350 million for the NHS, the UKIP poster etc.) where people struggle to make an informed choice.

It can't have been that difficult for the government to take a considered approach and to put forward independently validated facts about what we pay to the EU and what we receive, and the constitutional implications for Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales if (as has obviously happened in Scotland and NI) they choose against the majority to remain.

Instead, people have made choices based on interpretations of the truth by careerist politicians and the media.

There's a strong assumption here, and among remain supporters more generally, that the official leave campaign duped leave voters. If only voters were given the 'facts', the objective truth, the reality of the EU, then things would have turned out differently. But from my experience, people made up their own minds about the referendum without listening to Johnson, Cameron, Gove, Farage et al.

 

[mk12]

There's a strong assumption here, and among remain supporters more generally, that the official leave campaign duped leave voters. If only voters were given the 'facts', the objective truth, the reality of the EU, then things would have turned out differently. But from my experience, people made up their own minds about the referendum without listening to Johnson, Cameron, Gove, Farage et al.

If just read an article that makes a similar argument actually:

The conviction that there was a kind of objective truth about the EU which could not be gainsaid led to a further error by the custodians of that supposed truth. For them, the referendum would be won if the less enlightened could be led to the truth. So, an endless procession of serious figures – the grandees whose views had always prevailed – were wheeled out to ensure that people were in no doubt as to how they should vote. What they did not seem to realise was that, the more insistent their supposed betters were, the more likely ordinary people were to disregard what they were told.

Bryan Gould » Their Hysterical Reaction Tells Us Why The Remainers Lost

 

[Pickman's model]

Two things have taken place: departure from the EU; and Cameron’s collapse. Cameron’s replacement will be far more right wing. Under those more right wing policies, workers rights and tax reform will be weakened.

As matters stand Cameron's successor would have quite a struggle with the parliamentary arithmetic to pursue the legislative course you suggest. But perhaps you could identify how you foresee the slim tory majority allowing this radical departure working.

 

[Pickman's model]

Gove coaching Brexit’ers to ignore expert opinion was about as close to a text-book definition of anti-intellectual as is possible to get. Democracy has entered a post-factual stage i.e. bigotry.

You clearly were not with us in 2002/2003