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UK Votes to Leave EU

Odrade said:
Being against the EU as a project Brexit is, while a surprise, heartening to me. If I had been living in the middle of the xenophobic campaign you had, I would probably be more able to identify with your fear and your general sentiments in this matter, but still: What the English left seems to be most frightened of here is democracy, as such. To be given over to the machinations and judgement of the actual people of England, who are portrayed as racist, reactionary, irresponsible and stupid. I don´t know whether this is the case. I certainly hope not. Regardless: If that is the case, the people of England should still be the ones deciding the politics of England. The general sentiment of the English left seems to be grieving the loss of the power of Brussels who could be guaranteed to hold your own majority in check. Your arguments reads as fear of being an actual democracy. Without the UK. Without the EU. To hold on to such a fear of the people is a frightening place for any left to be. Anyway: Good luck, and welcome to the outside, from Norway (it´s probably going to be not that terrible.)
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You've described centrist liberals not the left.

Edit: Actually you didn't I misread. Bed time for me.
 
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the English left seems to be grieving the loss of the power of Brussels who could be guaranteed to hold your own majority in check. Your arguments reads as fear of being an actual democracy. Without the UK. Without the EU. To hold on to such a fear of the people is a frightening place for any left to be
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Beautiful words.
 
butchersapron said:
Not actual real term interests and people who speak for them. Just a generic Eu? The Eu member states? The commissioners? The MEPs? The states? Who exactly?
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Interesting accusatory style you have there. But you'll not get a rise from me.

I'm reporting an observation. From comments made by representatives of both elected administrations of EU member state governments, MEPs, as well as various experienced European journalists.
 
Odrade said:
Being against the EU as a project Brexit is, while a surprise, heartening to me. If I had been living in the middle of the xenophobic campaign you had, I would probably be more able to identify with the fear many people of the left display, but still: What the English left seems to be most frightened of is democracy, as such. To be given over to the judgement of people of England, who are portrayed as racist, reactionary, irresponsible and stupid. I don´t know whether this is the case. I certainly hope not. Regardless: If that is the case, the people of England should still be the ones deciding the politics of England. The general sentiment of the English left seems to be grieving the loss of the power of Brussels who could be guaranteed to hold your own majority in check. the main arguments of the general "left" reads as fear of being an actual democracy. Without the UK. Without the EU. To hold on to such a fear of the people is a frightening place for any left to be. Anyway: Good luck, and welcome to the outside, from Norway (it´s probably going to be not that terrible.)
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:D this is true.

'Fear of being an actual democracy' sums this up though. First leader I remember is Thatcher, and it's been shit all the way along from there. I do not feel that I am in an actual democracy at all. If this is the start of that??? That feels like insane optimism atm, with moves to ditch Corbyn already, no doubt to be replaced by a right-wing type if they succeed, and Boris Johnson on the horizon as PM for the next four years.
 
2hats said:
Interesting accusatory style you have there. But you'll not get a rise from me.

I'm reporting an observation. From comments made by representatives of both elected administrations of EU member state governments, MEPs, as well as various experienced European journalists.
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If you think that was observation...no,you know that it wasn't.
 
emanymton said:
As someone who pretends to be a Marxist and sees the world primarily as a conflict between labour and capital I think the EU exist primarily (not exclusively) to serve the interests of capital. I belive therefore that the prospects (and I stress prospects only) for labour are better outside the the EU, as it is one less layer to deal with. The only way in which the EU could be made to implement and reforms beneficial to labour is by being forced to by working class struggle, and it will be far less responsive to those pressures than individual states. Un fact there is a pretty compelling argument that it could not be shifted at all, certainly nothing less than a mass united Europe wide movement could do it.
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The UK is a polity designed to serve the interests of capital and to remove local organisation in the regions and concentrate power near the home of elites. In many ways it was and is the archetype. The chances of a working class movement succeeding have not improved. Maybe not worsened, but not improved. Well, when deregulation hits health and safety it will worsen the lot of many in the working class.
 
weltweit said:
Interesting graphic, basically young people got shafted!
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Not only did they get shafted, but they know it.

I swear old people are meant to give you werthers originals and knitted jumpers and not economic instability and widespread unemployment.
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And from the FT:

image1-2JPG.jpg
 
Falcon said:
Not only did they get shafted, but they know it.



And from the FT:

image1-2JPG.jpg
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What a disengeious pile of shit. Lost the right to live and work in 27 countries? Because no one from the UK lives and works in America or Australia, or other non-eu counties. And we have not swapped one distant elite for another, we have gone from 2 distant elites to just one. As for the working class suffering the most, well it's too early to know just how things will go, but I suspect that for most working class people life will go on pretty much the way it did before. So far the only people complaing about losing out is people worry about the value of their savings and stock portfolios.
 
emanymton said:
As for the working class suffering the most, well it's too early to know just how things will go, but I suspect that for most working class people life will go on pretty much the way it did before. So far the only people complaing about losing out is people worry about the value of their savings and stock portfolios.
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We are about to undergo one of the most savage lurches to the right in the modern history of this country “riding a wave of triumphalism and euphoria". They are *already* planning NHS privatisation, assault on workers rights, abandonment of the Human Rights Charter, and of tax justice reforms, which EU membership prevented them from implementing.

And the working class is providing the mandate.

Rarely has the statement “Turkey’s don’t vote for Christmas” been so wrong.

And, no, there are more people complaining than that:

 
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emanymton said:
What a disengeious pile of shit. Lost the right to live and work in 27 countries? Because no one from the UK lives and works in America or Australia, or other non-eu counties. ..
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So you do expect Brits will no longer have the ability to live and work in France Germany or Spain, our closest neighbours?
 
weltweit said:
So you do expect Brits will no longer have the ability to live and work in France Germany or Spain, our closest neighbours?
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No I expect they will have that ability, true it may be more difficult. But to try and pretend that that will be impossible in the future as that article does it total crap.
 
emanymton said:
No I expect they will have that ability, true it may be more difficult. But to try and pretend that that will be impossible in the future as that article does it total crap.
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Probably will retain it as the UK government will carry on accepting the free flow of labour as a condition of being a member of the EEA.
 
Poi E said:
Probably will retain it as the UK government will carry on accepting the free flow of labour as a condition of being a member of the EEA.
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I don't see that the exit winners of the referendum on which massive numbers of people voted to stop inward EU immigration can accept the continued free flow of labour from the EU.
 
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