UK Votes to Leave EU

[Coolfonz]

The news playing out with Beatles songs saying `goooodbye`, shots of Buck House.

The Corgis!! Bye to them too.

 

[Coolfonz]

Might as well give Gibraltar back, or they'll all catch the number 32 and defect.

 

[agricola]

There are no negotiations:



Anyone seen anything like this? if true this is their get-out.

That seems a bit misleading - the Article is below (relevant point in bold)

1. Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements.

2. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218(3) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament.

3. The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.

4. For the purposes of paragraphs 2 and 3, the member of the European Council or of the Council representing the withdrawing Member State shall not participate in the discussions of the European Council or Council or in decisions concerning it.

A qualified majority shall be defined in accordance with Article 238(3)(b) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union.

5. If a State which has withdrawn from the Union asks to rejoin, its request shall be subject to the procedure referred to in Article 49.

(from here)

 

[Skyfallsz]

But what happens if you can't create the functional alternative either because of actual EU rules really being in the way, or because of the limitations stable EU membership imposes on some peoples perceptions? e.g. that too many people who you need to join the project to make it successful don't believe it is 'possible' or 'practical' because they see large, distant domineering forces that appear to be monolithic and near-invincible. Especially when this gets mixed with personal experience and some history into dodgy notions about what forms of fairness, equality and opportunity 'human nature' can actually stomach. Little of worth grows in such desolate soils where no hope springs.

Under circumstances of suffocation, don't be surprised if people try to find gaps to breathe anywhere they can. No matter how unsettling it may be, there is an inevitability about this release, it delivered something that handwringing appeals to cling to the status quo never got close to even pretending to offer.

I also suggest that an appetite for change was further whipped up by the way the energy flowed through the Scottish referendum and those that observed both it and the mainstream media words spoken about it. Anti-climaxes can be demotivating but sometimes they are fertiliser for the next opportunity.

Sorry I'm pissed now so I can't reply properly

But regarding the idea that it was impossible to create an alternative, no not at all, the alternative needs adverse conditions to thrive, marxism was written during the industrial revolution and the european partisans who we all admire and love came from the spanish civil war and then nazi occupation. my real disappointment is that the fake left show their true colours with their little mafias.

Complete failure of the government and the left and the EU, keep phrasing it and intellectualising it, it's at the point now where nigel farage and boris johnson outmanouevered everyone, but yeah, global capital is also bad, so there is that

 

[Coolfonz]

Basically Spain could walk in now. Like if they gave everyone on the island £1mn that would be £32bn. Job done.

 

[Skyfallsz]

Frankly things would be shit whichever way the referendum went. But if we are in we have virtually no chance of ever making them less shit

That would be a great slogan to plaster all over busses

 

[Coolfonz]

Yo Gibraltar, £500k each, in cash, hand over the keys, what you say? Easy. Man, woman, child.

 

[emanymton]

There are no negotiations:



Anyone seen anything like this? if true this is their get-out.

Wow! I can't see it actually being done like that though. If it does work like that it's just one more thing showing the true nature of the EU.

 

[emanymton]

That would be a great slogan to plaster all over busses

Maybe I should get a job in advertising?

 

[butchersapron]

That seems a bit misleading - the Article is below (relevant point in bold)



(from here)

It is misleading it says the shall be negotiations but the "4. For the purposes of paragraphs 2 and 3, the member of the European Council or of the Council representing the withdrawing Member State shall not participate in the discussions of the European Council or Council or in decisions concerning it."

Then the qualified majority stuff following can only refer to an agreement of other members.

 

[realitybites]

They don't feel like citizens, like I said, it's a fundamental problem, I agree with the problems, just disagree with the ill thought out solutions

Feeling the same, but that didn't stop me voting out, I guess I'm one of the citizens with fundamental problems.. Today I started questioning how and why it even got to the point where I could agree with any camp supported by Falange. I always felt far left in terms of political slant, but without a liberal and balanced, easy ohsey existence that is possibly a saviour of many middle class lefty ideologies, mine swung so far left with nowhere to go that it got angry and turned into hard right, fer fuck sake! Is that even possible?

 

[butchersapron]

Have they wrote so badly on purpose - i can def see the way it's read above as being arguable.

 

[agricola]

It is misleading it says the shall be negotiations but the "4. For the purposes of paragraphs 2 and 3, the member of the European Council or of the Council representing the withdrawing Member State shall not participate in the discussions of the European Council or Council or in decisions concerning it."

Then the qualified majority stuff following can only refer to an agreement of other members.

I think that refers to discussions around their side of the negotiations and the framing of their offer / conditions etc, rather than the negotiations (edit: between the state wanting to withdraw and the EU) themselves.

 

[butchersapron]

I think that refers to discussions around their side of the negotiations and the framing of their offer / conditions etc, rather than the negotiations (edit: between the state wanting to withdraw and the EU) themselves.

That's what i think it means to say too. But does it? And just looking at that and how little they cared to think about someone leaving tells its own story.

 

[elbows]

This BBC graphic might help if its accurate.

 

[Sue]

I also suggest that an appetite for change was further whipped up by the way the energy flowed through the Scottish referendum and those that observed both it and the mainstream media words spoken about it. Anti-climaxes can be demotivating but sometimes they are fertiliser for the next opportunity.

I was in Scotland during the Indyref campaign and in London for this one. During Indyref, both sides were energised -- people were debating the issues at length and in depth on buses, cafes, pubs, everywhere. People were interested and enthused. (I was in one of the strongest In areas too.)

Here, it was completely different. Little energy that I could see -- I live in one of the strongest Remain areas so you'd think there'd be at least some energy or interest but I really didn't see it at all. There seemed to be little discussion or interest in the whole thing.

Maybe things were different in Leave areas?

 

[elbows]

Here, it was completely different. Little energy that I could see -- I live in one of the strongest Remain areas so you'd think there'd be at least some energy or interest but I really didn't see it at all. There seemed to be little discussion or interest in the whole thing.

Maybe things were different in Leave areas?

I'm in a 66% leave area but I wasn't in Scotland for that campaign so I can't compare like you could. None of the real-life discussions about the referendum I had would win any awards for depth, but there was greater interest in the sense that most people at work discussed it, especially in the final days, and many of them dont usually talk about anything overtly political with me. This rather weak anecdotal evidence is backed up by the turnout figures I suppose, and the result.

 

[butchersapron]

I was in Scotland during the Indyref campaign and in London for this one. During Indyref, both sides were energised -- people were debating the issues at length and in depth on buses, cafes, pubs, everywhere. People were interested and enthused. (I was in one of the strongest In areas too.)

Here, it was completely different. Little energy that I could see -- I live in one of the strongest Remain areas so you'd think there'd be at least some energy or interest but I really didn't see it at all. There seemed to be little discussion or interest in the whole thing.

Maybe things were different in Leave areas?

I've got two areas

1) bristol Not really. The narrative was set from early - old ladies and former army types supported leave - ha ha laugh at them

2) weston super mare - nice people in town ( a town that's got considerably rougher and poorer since 1997) with a stall - real debate in the few pubs and places i go in. Place has changed massively - bristol not so much. Or maybe one used to fast change and one never experienced it.

 

[Skyfallsz]

Feeling the same, but that didn't stop me voting out, I guess I'm one of the citizens with fundamental problems.. Today I started questioning how and why it even got to the point where I could agree with any camp supported by Falange. I always felt far left in terms of political slant, but without a liberal and balanced, easy ohsey existence that is possibly a saviour of many middle class lefty ideologies, mine swung so far left with nowhere to go that it got angry and turned into hard right, fer fuck sake! Is that even possible?

I believe that it has historical precedent

 

[coley]

This BBC graphic might help if its accurate.

Regarding article 50, didn't Cameron vow to invoke it immediately should we vote to leave?

 

[Sue]

I'm in a 66% leave area but I wasn't in Scotland for that campaign so I can't compare like you could. None of the real-life discussions about the referendum I had would win any awards for depth, but there was greater interest in the sense that most people at work discussed it, especially in the final days, and many of them dont usually talk about anything overtly political with me. This rather weak anecdotal evidence is backed up by the turnout figures I suppose, and the result.

I'm in a 78% remain area in London. Not a single hand delivered leaflet through the door, a couple of people handing out leaflets (both sides) outside my local station and that was about it. Found the lack of interest/engagement quite strange.

 

[Mr.Bishie]

Regarding article 50, didn't Cameron vow to invoke it immediately should we vote to leave?

Apparently not! He's left it to his predecessor!

 

[elbows]

Regarding article 50, didn't Cameron vow to invoke it immediately should we vote to leave?

Dunno but the Sun seems to have a front page suggesting that his sentiment today was 'why should I do the hard shit?'

The initial attempt at a timetable looks to me like its giving more consideration to politicians getting their nice summer holiday and fitting things to the tory party conference schedule than it does the realities of external pressures to bring some quick certainties back to the picture. For now I'm not sure how viable the long delay that the October plan demands will be.

 

[emanymton]

Regarding article 50, didn't Cameron vow to invoke it immediately should we vote to leave?

He also said he didn't stick his dick in a pigs head. I didn't believe him on either occasion.

 

[coley]

Could be my faul

Apparently not! He's left it to his predecessor! [/QUOTe
Could be my faulty memory but I could swear remembering him giving such an assurance, thought at the time it was just another threat?

 

[Orang Utan]

what will we do without eurodance?

 

[butchersapron]

Could be my faulty memory but I could swear remembering him giving such an assurance, thought at the time it was just another threat?

No he did.

 

[Sue]

I've got two areas

1) bristol Not really. The narrative was set from early - old ladies and former army types supported leave - ha ha laugh at them

2) weston super mare - nice people in town ( a town that's got considerably rougher and poorer since 1997) with a stall - real debate in the few pubs and places i go in. Place has changed massively - bristol not so much. Or maybe one used to fast change and one never experienced it.

Bristol was remain, what was WSM? Leave?

 

[redsquirrel]

Could be my faul

No he said it, but was just a daft bluff/piece of PR. Like how he wasn't going to resign as PM

 

[butchersapron]

Bristol was remain, what was WSM?

I can only find the figure for the council - wsm is the arse end end of lot of posh people and london types (north somerset) . 53% leave. I would be surprised if wsm other than outlying areas was under 65% leave. I will be keeping my eye on this.