UK Votes to Leave EU

[Steel Icarus]

I wish it was just a battle of ideologies. But it isn't. It is a real material battle that takes place daily, as capital tries to force more and more concessions from labour. The EU will not protect labour from capital, it is in fact one of the institutiones capital uses to force those concessions. The only way to slow the gradual descent into shit id by working class struggle. Am I optimistic about the prospects for such struggle? No I am not. But by leaving the EU we deprive capital of one of the leavers it has against us. The EU will never work to improve things for the working class.

I think this issue shows incredibly clearly the difference between those who really have pro-working class politics and the liberals. The librals look for some entity that somehow exists outside of society to improve things, weather it's the state or the EU. Those with true pro-working class politics recognise that it is only by the active struggle of the working class that things will improve. Not that I am saying everyone who voted remain is a liberal, as with those of us who voted leave there are a wide range of reasons why people voted to remain.

Thank you for this post, I really like it.

 

[emanymton]

I agree with every word of that, says it perfectly. But also, as you say, the result and the act of leaving don't themselves provide grounds for optimism in terms of struggle. To see a scenario where there is an improvement or an upturn in struggle as a result requires twists and turns or unintended consequences. Just at the level of common sense there's the likelihood of more austerity, more public sector pay cuts - not the squawking predictions of 'project fear', but definitely something. There might also be twists and turns in terms of which politicians rise to the top of the pile, but it looks like a boost for the worst bits of the tory party. Things may well get worse. But what do you do? Just as you say, it would have been madness to line up with EU neo-liberalism in the pretence that it might 'defend' us. Who would it defend us from, itself and the very set of forces and structures that it is a key part of? ONce you start thinking class struggle can be done in some way alongside or 'with'/'within' the EU, you stop doing class struggle.

And as it happens I agree with every word of this.
I'm not the best at written communication, and I think you really clarify some of the points I struggled to get across.

 

[butchersapron]

A couple of articles I thought were interesting.
Jon Snow starting to get it - with a lot of hindsight - though i think more of the media should have tried to understand before it would have been better, and he is still patronising - some people are "Easy pickings for politicians determined to blame Europe for all Britain's failings" - and nothing about people wanting more democratic control.

John Harris makes some very good points in this article - though one or two of his previous articles have seemed to blame immigration on its one for lowering wages and raising rents etc - i think he doesn't always put his observations in a detailed enough context of welfare cuts and increased conditionality (and the political language surrounding this), massive cuts to local services, bulldozing or selling off of social housing, etc, and lack of planning which in themselves can certainly lead to worse pay and conditions, and increased rents and poorer living conditions for working class people, and when combined with increased immigration to a particular area can make things very hard - and make it easy to blame immigration alone as the cause.

That harris piece is good.

I'm a mid 40s working class bloke of immigrant parents, I didn't go to university. I'm technically homeless and live on a camp bed 4 nights of of the week at my mums. I work for min wage (well, under, but let's not go there now). I've never had more than £500 in my account. I've spent my whole life since my mid teens involved in socialist/anarchist/communist and community activity - real life activity not liking stuff on the internet. The EU's intention is to bring everyone down to the same level as me - that's the whole point. Wage competition. What has the eu for me? I can't afford what the freedom of movement promises. What has the eu for me?

 

[free spirit]

If there was any possibility of that happening it would have happened by now. I'm gutted about the result, but I do recognise that the EU is a capitalist superstate and all of the mythologising about bringing the continent together etc is just Eurodisney
But I don't agree with trying to destroy it when the alternatives are even worse. There doesn't seem to be a positive left wing argument, I'd imagine that the reality will involve some very well thought out criticisms of what comes along next

why would it have happened by now?

We're likely at the tail end of the neoliberal austerity project, it's failing catastrophically across multiple countries, with left wing parties either in government or heading that way in multiple countries, and there's the first chance in a generation of us ending up with a socialist or at least social democratic government if Corbyn gets his act together.

And we pretty much have a free pass in the EU as they can not impose austerity on us in the same way they can with eurozone countries.

There's a battle to be fought across europe to achieve this, but we aren't going to achieve fuck all by withdrawing from the field of that battle only to leave ourselves entirely open to the tories making rapid fire trade agreements with whoever they feel like it on whatever terms offered, with the WTO arbitrating.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

We're likely at the tail end of the neoliberal austerity project, it's failing catastrophically across multiple countries, with left wing parties either in government or heading that way in multiple countries, and there's the first chance in a generation of us ending up with a socialist or at least social democratic government if Corbyn gets his act together.

What fucking planet do you live on?

 

[butchersapron]

They don't feel like citizens, like I said, it's a fundamental problem, I agree with the problems, just disagree with the ill thought out solutions
I don't think that it was about the money, that was the fundamental error that the pro EU side made. The fundamental error of the other side is that it isn't going to get anyone the respect that they feel they deserve.

Because a right that you can't afford doesn't exist is the correct answer. And a system set up so that you can't exercise those wonderful rights is the problem.

 

[butchersapron]

why would it have happened by now?

We're likely at the tail end of the neoliberal austerity project, it's failing catastrophically across multiple countries, with left wing parties either in government or heading that way in multiple countries, and there's the first chance in a generation of us ending up with a socialist or at least social democratic government if Corbyn gets his act together.

And we pretty much have a free pass in the EU as they can not impose austerity on us in the same way they can with eurozone countries.

There's a battle to be fought across europe to achieve this, but we aren't going to achieve fuck all by withdrawing from the field of that battle only to leave ourselves entirely open to the tories making rapid fire trade agreements with whoever they feel like it on whatever terms offered, with the WTO arbitrating.

Are you at glastonbury?

 

[Skyfallsz]

Because a right that you can't afford doesn't exist is the correct answer. And a system set up so that you can't exercise those wonderful rights is the problem.

You'd be surprised how many working class people do excercise the right to travel freely around Europe and take advantage of the freedom of movement. I've heard that there are several airlines facilitating this

 

[free spirit]

What fucking planet do you live on?

why do you think it will go on for ever?

it's a failed ideology that's been completely exposed as a failure in recent years, it's time is running out (though it will need concerted work internationally to push it aside).

And more to the point, if you don't see any way of dislodging it then I suppose it's no wonder that lexiters have simply supported this exit without having any strategy beyond it.

Me, I've got a strategy, or at least I had one, with a potential end game to it that actually ended up with a paradigm shift away from neoliberalism and austerity. But we've fuck all chance of that if we've got a desperate tory government doing trade deals under the WTO auspicies without the clout of the EU to stand up to it.

 

[butchersapron]

You'd be surprised how many working class people do excercise the right to travel freely around Europe and take advantage of the freedom of movement. I've heard that there are several airlines facilitating this

Yes and you may be surprised to hear that many cannot - and certainly not as the lets pop off to france style that is being suggested. But you're correct i suppose, eveyone is equal now. Hence the results. Hence the depressing never ending statistics about deprivation and poverty in these naughty areas that don't like the eu. All equal all the time.

 

[redsquirrel]

What fucking planet do you live on?

He's gone full on loon this last month. Jazz's post's had a better grasp of reality than this nonsense.

Of course his plan which was going to lead to the end of neo-liberalism was vote for the LibDems, sorry the Greens, sorry Corbyn, sorry the Greens,

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

why do you think it will go on for ever?

Of course, why would they stop it? Have you seen how much they're raking it in with this austerity?

it's a failed ideology that's been completely exposed as a failure in recent years, it's time is running out (though it will need concerted work internationally to push it aside).

Not it's not, austerity is laying golden eggs every day.

And more to the point, if you don't see any way of dislodging it then I suppose it's no wonder that lexiters have simply supported this exit without having any strategy beyond it.

Yes, and the working class of Britain realised the same thing too.

Me, I've got a strategy, or at least I had one, with a potential end game to it that actually ended up with a paradigm shift away from neoliberalism and austerity.

Well, you're too late.

 

[emanymton]

It lets people have citizenship rights in a large area. It's in the interests of itself, they probably make more money like that.

Your existentialist questions are a bit pointless since, like I said a couple of times about my main grievance with the Leave people, you aren't offering anything!
What role do you think that the state is going to perform and which interests will it serve now that the referendum results are in? Whose interests does it serve to kick the EU in the balls?

But the leave side does offer something, an absence of the EU. And I don't think the question is pointless, the EU must have a purpose otherwise it would not exist. How can you really present a case for staying or leaving without some idea of what purpose the EU serves. You are giving some examples of things the EU does, but don't seem to be able to answer the question of why it does those things.

As someone who pretends to be a Marxist and sees the world primarily as a conflict between labour and capital I think the EU exist primarily (not exclusively) to serve the interests of capital. I belive therefore that the prospects (and I stress prospects only) for labour are better outside the the EU, as it is one less layer to deal with. The only way in which the EU could be made to implement and reforms beneficial to labour is by being forced to by working class struggle, and it will be far less responsive to those pressures than individual states. Un fact there is a pretty compelling argument that it could not be shifted at all, certainly nothing less than a mass united Europe wide movement could do it.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

He's gone full on loon this last month.

I think I'm right in saying his business is heavily funded by the EU. Which may account for this. I could be wrong though.

 

[killer b]

Well, you're too late.

He'd have done it too, if it weren't for those pesky kids!

 

[emanymton]

why do you think it will go on for ever?

it's a failed ideology that's been completely exposed as a failure in recent years, it's time is running out (though it will need concerted work internationally to push it aside).

And more to the point, if you don't see any way of dislodging it then I suppose it's no wonder that lexiters have simply supported this exit without having any strategy beyond it.

Me, I've got a strategy, or at least I had one, with a potential end game to it that actually ended up with a paradigm shift away from neoliberalism and austerity. But we've fuck all chance of that if we've got a desperate tory government doing trade deals under the WTO auspicies without the clout of the EU to stand up to it.

Seriously, are you posting from a parallel dimension or something? That last sentence is so far removed from reality it's surreal. The only thing that will stop the neo-libreal project is if we stop it, or the fuck the planet up so much we all go Mad Max. This exactly what I said about appealing to something that somehow exists outside of society to save us. But it us exactly the institution you are appealing to that is the problem. It's like begging the school bully to step in and stop himself from bullying you.

 

[Skyfallsz]

Yes and you may be surprised to hear that many cannot - and certainly not as the lets pop off to france style that is being suggested. But you're correct i suppose, eveyone is equal now. Hence the results. Hence the depressing never ending statistics about deprivation and poverty in these naughty areas that don't like the eu. All equal all the time.

But you are attacking as if I was claiming that the EU is a utopia. My position is that fucking over the UK and EU is a terrible decision because the stagnation of the EU is better than chaos. Socialism is not a product of chaos,

 

[butchersapron]

But you are attacking as if I was claiming that the EU is a utopia. My position is that fucking over the UK and EU is a terrible decision because the stagnation of the EU is better than chaos. Socialism is not a product of chaos,

No.

 

[butchersapron]

Can i just warn any kids reading, this is what coke does to you:

Me, I've got a strategy, or at least I had one, with a potential end game to it that actually ended up with a paradigm shift away from neoliberalism and austerity.

 

[Orang Utan]

The words 'paradigm shift' immediately removes any claim to credibility

 

[Skyfallsz]

But the leave side does offer something, an absence of the EU. And I don't think the question is pointless, the EU must have a purpose otherwise it would not exist. How can you really present a case for staying or leaving without some idea of what purpose the EU serves. You are giving some examples of things the EU does, but don't seem to be able to answer the question of why it does those things.

As someone who pretends to be a Marxist and sees the world primarily as a conflict between labour and capital I think the EU exist primarily (not exclusively) to serve the interests of capital. I belive therefore that the prospects (and I stress prospects only) for labour are better outside the the EU, as it is one less layer to deal with. The only way in which the EU could be made to implement and reforms beneficial to labour is by being forced to by working class struggle, and it will be far less responsive to those pressures than individual states. Un fact there is a pretty compelling argument that it could not be shifted at all, certainly nothing less than a mass united Europe wide movement could do it.

I'm also someone who pretends to be a Marxist, but I'm getting old and it is so tempting to see it in other terms when the little I have is under threat.
Where we part company is this idealism that you have that the EU is an obstacle to be removed. In that sense I have more sympathy with Emma Goldman anarchism than anything else (as I understand it) but it's just pointless trashing something when you don't have an alternative, you create an alternative, and that is what our work should be as socialists, and then when we have made something functional and up and running then we can offer an alternative. If you just smash capitalism then you end up with a smashed capitalism, it doesn't just 'work itself out' capitalism is very good at smashing itself, you can't beat them or join them.
I'd be seriously impressed with any alternative beyond ending it. If there is no alternative then yes of course I would prefer the one that lets me work in 27 other countries and lets the youth go to these cities like Barcelona and Krakow and Milan for 20 pounds like that isn't an amazing thing

 

[redsquirrel]

Just appeared on the Guardian feed

Meanwhile, Reuters reports that major Wall Street banks are scouring Europe to find a new home for their traders, bankers and financial licenses.

“The question becomes where exactly do they move to? There’s no clear answer on that. You might end up having a more fragmented financial industry in Europe,” Edward Chan, a partner at law firm Linklaters, told the news agency.

Oh noes!

 

[emanymton]

I'm also someone who pretends to be a Marxist, but I'm getting old and it is so tempting to see it in other terms when the little I have is under threat.
Where we part company is this idealism that you have that the EU is an obstacle to be removed. In that sense I have more sympathy with Emma Goldman anarchism than anything else (as I understand it) but it's just pointless trashing something when you don't have an alternative, you create an alternative, and that is what our work should be as socialists, and then when we have made something functional and up and running then we can offer an alternative. If you just smash capitalism then you end up with a smashed capitalism, it doesn't just 'work itself out' capitalism is very good at smashing itself, you can't beat them or join them.
I'd be seriously impressed with any alternative beyond ending it. If there is no alternative then yes of course I would prefer the one that lets me work in 27 other countries and lets the youth go to these cities like Barcelona and Krakow and Milan for 20 pounds like that isn't an amazing thing

Ib order to ask what would replace the EU assumes it benefits us in some way. I don't belive it does and don't feel a need to replace it. Plenty of counties around the world manage to exist outside the EU without descending into chaos.

 

[elbows]

but it's just pointless trashing something when you don't have an alternative, you create an alternative, and that is what our work should be as socialists, and then when we have made something functional and up and running then we can offer an alternative. If you just smash capitalism then you end up with a smashed capitalism, it doesn't just 'work itself out' capitalism is very good at smashing itself, you can't beat them or join them.

But what happens if you can't create the functional alternative either because of actual EU rules really being in the way, or because of the limitations stable EU membership imposes on some peoples perceptions? e.g. that too many people who you need to join the project to make it successful don't believe it is 'possible' or 'practical' because they see large, distant domineering forces that appear to be monolithic and near-invincible. Especially when this gets mixed with personal experience and some history into dodgy notions about what forms of fairness, equality and opportunity 'human nature' can actually stomach. Little of worth grows in such desolate soils where no hope springs.

Under circumstances of suffocation, don't be surprised if people try to find gaps to breathe anywhere they can. No matter how unsettling it may be, there is an inevitability about this release, it delivered something that handwringing appeals to cling to the status quo never got close to even pretending to offer.

I also suggest that an appetite for change was further whipped up by the way the energy flowed through the Scottish referendum and those that observed both it and the mainstream media words spoken about it. Anti-climaxes can be demotivating but sometimes they are fertiliser for the next opportunity.

 

[Skyfallsz]

Ib order to ask what would replace the EU assumes it benefits us in some way. I don't belive it does and don't feel a need to replace it. Plenty of counties around the world manage to exist outside the EU without descending into chaos.

I don't think that we are going to have chaos, but the non EU countries that the UK considers as peers are Japan and Korea and North America and I don't envy their systems. Like I keep saying, if there was something to replace it with I want to know about it. Outside of the EU the obvious peers for the UK are Korea and Japan, they are not doing very well, they work much harder than us for less result.

 

[Coolfonz]

It's gonna be a bumpy ride!! Short the FTSE before it opens! Go FTFx FTSE 100 Super Short !!!

Sterling at e1.20...

Quite exciting really...

Now its on the leavers to come up trumps, make sure all those dire economic predictions were wrong, if it goes pear shaped, buy ropes and lamposts... woohoooooooo!!

My prediction - all sides are now going to try and back off from the edge, points based immigration system? No way. Leaving the single market? No way. If I'm right and you read this, you owe me £500 each.

Ibex in Spain, exchange in Milan dropped 12pc today...12pc!!! FTSE only ~3pc. Much more worries about the euro than sterling. wow.

Reaction in France, Spain, it's crazy, old people voted to leave, whats going to happen, generation split. european state not dead. what are the fundamental ideas of the EU? what are they (Brits) saying? that they will be ruled by the countryside? He (Farage) talked to the dispossessed. It's historic. We are repeating words today which are very negative, rupture, break, crash. The biggest crash in the IBEX in history. Brexit has damaged the IBEX more than Lehman. The most complex divorce in history. The UK has emboldened Eurosceptics across the EU. An inflexion point in Europe. We hope the UK will give its ideas soon.

Rajoy spoke about the English in Spain. I got bits. He was being nice, `don't worry` `we have to take this calmly`.` But I can't 100pc.

First take is everyone wants to be nice. Early doors. And their market (Spain) just fell by the biggest amount in history. Have to check that.

 

[butchersapron]

Ibex in Spain, exchange in Milan dropped 12pc today...12pc!!! FTSE only ~3pc. Much more worries about the euro than sterling. wow.

Reaction in France, Spain, it's crazy, old people voted to leave, whats going to happen, generation split. european state not dead. what are the fundamental ideas of the EU? what are they (Brits) saying? that they will be ruled by the countryside? He (Farage) talked to the dispossessed. It's historic. We are repeating words today which are very negative, rupture, break, crash. The biggest crash in the IBEX in history. Brexit has damaged the IBEX more than Lehman. The most complex divorce in history. The UK has emboldened Eurosceptics across the EU. An inflexion point in Europe. We hope the UK will give its ideas soon.

Rajoy spoke about the English in Spain. I got bits. He was being nice, `don't worry` `we have to take this calmly`.` But I can't 100pc.

First take is everyone wants to be nice. Early doors. And their market (Spain) just fell by the biggest amount in history.

Says tanks. Then you're a proper money internet talker.

 

[Coolfonz]

Ibex in Spain, exchange in Milan dropped 12pc today...12pc!!! FTSE only ~3pc. Much more worries about the euro than sterling. wow.

Reaction in France, Spain, it's crazy, old people voted to leave, whats going to happen, generation split. european state not dead. what are the fundamental ideas of the EU? what are they (Brits) saying? that they will be ruled by the countryside? He (Farage) talked to the dispossessed. It's historic. We are repeating words today which are very negative, rupture, break, crash. The biggest crash in the IBEX in history. Brexit has damaged the IBEX more than Lehman. The most complex divorce in history. The UK has emboldened Eurosceptics across the EU. An inflexion point in Europe. We hope the UK will give its ideas soon.

Rajoy spoke about the English in Spain. I got bits. He was being nice, `don't worry` `we have to take this calmly`.` But I can't 100pc.

First take is everyone wants to be nice. Early doors. And their market (Spain) just fell by the biggest amount in history. Have to check that.

The news playing out with Beatles songs saying `goooodbye`, shots of Buck House.

 

[butchersapron]

There are no negotiations:

Once Article 50 is triggered, the terms of Brexit will be negotiated not by British politicians or diplomats, but by the other 27 nations of the EU.

And, when the members are ready, they will present the British government with a departure agreement on a "take it or leave it" basis.

Anyone seen anything like this? if true this is their get-out.

 

[emanymton]

I don't think that we are going to have chaos, but the non EU countries that the UK considers as peers are Japan and Korea and North America and I don't envy their systems. Like I keep saying, if there was something to replace it with I want to know about it. Outside of the EU the obvious peers for the UK are Korea and Japan, they are not doing very well, they work much harder than us for less result.

We're heading that way in or out. But we have more chance to resist/reverse it if we are out.

Frankly things would be shit whichever way the referendum went. But if we are in we have virtually no chance of ever making them less shit