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UK Votes to Leave EU

We can have an argument about whether we've influenced the EU more by leaving than anything we would likely have done by staying. Granted its most dramatic impact is of a form of influence quite different to stuffy negotiations. But I won't shed a tear that we've losses the ability to have someone negotiating on our behalf that thinks a great technique is to become desperate for a piss in order to focus the mind.

This exit will probably go down in history as part of a sequence of events that came to the surface via the banking crisis and associated shit, some stuff to do with the phase of capitalism, hangovers from last century and other stuff that hasn't become that well defined and confirmed to the masses yet. I find it hard not to have mixed feelings at the moment because of course we don't know what the next steps in the sequence are yet. Some obviously hope that this is the beginning of the end for the EU, or will at least change its direction.

Personally this event hasn't completely shaken my word because the one certainty I eventually settled on for this century so far is that we have entered a volatile state and the political ground, in terms of what is considered the mainstream 'legitimate spectrum of debate' has slowly been opening up in many directions. Things the centre found unthinkable have unfolded, and there is probably more to come.

I agree with this, I just wish I didn't have to live through it. Maybe I'm just stuck in a negative mindset, but how ridiculously lucky we are to be able to live in such a safe and stable place, I am upset that it's been trashed on purpose by this agenda.
I do agree that something had to happen, but considering that Britain is one of the rich bits of the world, could we not have come up with something positive?
 
Because the fight is with the ideology, always will be, it will never end, always will be a right and left and you just have to go on fighting for ever, like Captain Scarlett, you might never win but you have to fight.
This doesn't mean anything - how is ideology fought? What is ideology? How is it related to material conditions? Are those rejecting eu neo-liberalism by voting leave fighting the ideology, refusing to grant it any legitimacy it by any action whatsoever? Or are they as you said, lining up with nazis, nazi fellow travelers?

You need some ideology to keep you straight as it goes. Just saying the first thing off the top of your head each new event - no matter how opposed to what you said previously - just doesn't cut it. Esp now.
 
Leave-vs-Remain-podium-rankings.jpg


The concern over a democratic deficit on the part of Leavers can't seriously be ignored.
Is being and will be.
 
Because the fight is with the ideology, always will be, it will never end, always will be a right and left and you just have to go on fighting for ever, like Captain Scarlett, you might never win but you have to fight.
I wish it was just a battle of ideologies. But it isn't. It is a real material battle that takes place daily, as capital tries to force more and more concessions from labour. The EU will not protect labour from capital, it is in fact one of the institutiones capital uses to force those concessions. The only way to slow the gradual descent into shit id by working class struggle. Am I optimistic about the prospects for such struggle? No I am not. But by leaving the EU we deprive capital of one of the leavers it has against us. The EU will never work to improve things for the working class.

I think this issue shows incredibly clearly the difference between those who really have pro-working class politics and the liberals. The librals look for some entity that somehow exists outside of society to improve things, weather it's the state or the EU. Those with true pro-working class politics recognise that it is only by the active struggle of the working class that things will improve. Not that I am saying everyone who voted remain is a liberal, as with those of us who voted leave there are a wide range of reasons why people voted to remain.
 
François Hollande said:
“To move forward, Europe cannot act as before.”

Mark Rutte said:
The EU has to become more relevant, deliver added value to our lives: jobs, growth, control of our external borders...this strong discontent with Europe, the Europe of the lofty speeches. Most of my EU colleagues also share this view. They too don’t want any more big visions, conventions and treaties.

Charles Michel said:
We need to keep a cool head and need to see what new way of cooperation would be possible

Witold Waszczykowski said:
disillusionment with European integration, and declining trust in the EU

Matteo Renzi said:
We must change it to make it more human and more just

Nurettin Canikli said:
The European Union’s disintegration has started...Britain was the first to jump ship.


Fucking stupid Little Englanders :mad:
 
I wish it was just a battle of ideologies. But it isn't. It is a real material battle that takes place daily, as capital tries to force more and more concessions from labour. The EU will not protect labour from capital, it is in fact one of the institutiones capital uses to force those concessions. The only way to slow the gradual descent into shit id by working class struggle. Am I optimistic about the prospects for such struggle? No I am not. But by leaving the EU we deprive capital of one of the leavers it has against us. The EU will never work to improve things for the working class.

I think this issue shows incredibly clearly the difference between those who really have pro-working class politics and the liberals. The librals look for some entity that somehow exists outside of society to improve things, weather it's the state or the EU. Those with true pro-working class politics recognise that it is only by the active struggle of the working class that things will improve. Not that I am saying everyone who voted remain is a liberal, as with those of us who voted leave there are a wide range of reasons why people voted to remain.

Was this the active struggle of the working class?
Leave appealed to a lot of the working class, but that doesn't mean that it was an active struggle of the working class. Lots of things appeal to the working class, most of the population are working class, they can't all be right

'Removing a lever that capital holds against the international working class' somehow didn't make any of the Brexit leaflets
 
Joshua Rozenberg on the significance of Cameron not triggering the the article 50 (allows time for further negotiations, which could be put to a general election). I suspect he's grasping at straws. There's a legal route to further negotiations, but it's unlikely to become a political reality:
https://www.theguardian.com/comment...cle-50-lisbon-treaty-referendum-david-Cameron

Edit - link doesn't seem to be working, but the article is there on the grauniad site
I don't think it's about having more time, realistically would you want to end your leadership negotiating deals that could have massive consequences and which on the public face of things, isn't a decision you supported.

I certainly wouldn't
 
and Tony Benns giving you a back slap from beyond the grave, so fucking what?

Nobody can do anything once they're dead. Marine le Pen is very much alive and well and saying ''well done'' though. So congrats to those who deserve them.
 
Was this the active struggle of the working class?
Leave appealed to a lot of the working class, but that doesn't mean that it was an active struggle of the working class. Lots of things appeal to the working class, most of the population are working class, they can't all be right

'Removing a lever that capital holds against the international working class' somehow didn't make any of the Brexit leaflets
Why do you assume that the content of Brexit leaflets reflect people's reasons for leaving the EU? I doubt many people read the leaflets shoved through their door let alone internalised their messages.
 
Was this the active struggle of the working class?
Leave appealed to a lot of the working class, but that doesn't mean that it was an active struggle of the working class. Lots of things appeal to the working class, most of the population are working class, they can't all be right

'Removing a lever that capital holds against the international working class' somehow didn't make any of the Brexit leaflets
I didn't say it was an active struggle of the working class it clearly was not. What it has done is remove one of the institution that maintain the current situation.
 
This doesn't mean anything - how is ideology fought? What is ideology? How is it related to material conditions? Are those rejecting eu neo-liberalism by voting leave fighting the ideology, refusing to grant it any legitimacy it by any action whatsoever? Or are they as you said, lining up with nazis, nazi fellow travelers?

You need some ideology to keep you straight as it goes. Just saying the first thing off the top of your head each new event - no matter how opposed to what you said previously - just doesn't cut it. Esp now.

Some of them are fighting it yes. Completely. Some of the others are the 1mn who voted for two BNP MEPs in the one but last Euro elections. They can go suck their mothers' cunts. I said I would not line up with nazis. Me, my personal choice here. A distinction. You think I think the Urban Lexit crowd are soft on Nazis? You aren't inferring that are you?

And I can say what i like, it is, after all, the internet and I'm just some bloke.
 
Why do you assume that the content of Brexit leaflets reflect people's reasons for leaving the EU? I doubt many people read the leaflets shoved through their door let alone internalised their messages.

This
 
Some of them are fighting it yes. Completely. Some of the others are the 1mn who voted for two BNP MEPs in the one but last Euro elections. They can go suck their mothers' cunts. I said I would not line up with nazis. Me, my personal choice here. A distinction. You think I think the Urban Lexit crowd are soft on Nazis? You aren't inferring that are you?

And I can say what i like, it is, after all, the internet and I'm just some bloke.
You're the one who openly stated it, never mind inferring it.

You're all over the shop.
 
Name them.

Nigel Farage, George Galloway, Ian Duncan Smith, the two guys I saw walking into the polling station yesterday wearing LEAVE badges. Millions, it turns out, and I don't know every name. Perhaps lists will be posted at the appropriate time, that's how such things are done, I hear.
 
I note that Obama used the G word.

I do think that yesterday's vote speaks to the ongoing changes and challenges that are raised by globalisation. While the UK's relationship with the EU will change, one thing that will not change is the special relationship that exists between our two nations that will endure."
 
Interesting how this referendum has led some on the left to actually defend the EU rather than see them as the far enemy. Well for now that enemy is out the way, so why not focus on battling the near one instead?

Sad but true. A minority - perhaps a majority - of the left have given in to a liberalism expressed by the middle-classes of various sorts.

These types - academics, lawyers, middle managers in pensioned positions often house owners in inflated areas - materially benefited from the economic relationships cemented by the the European Union. They saw it as a friend against the rote workers struggling to maintain any sort of housing who wanted a shake-up in any way they could get it.

I am stunned by the reaction of leftist horror as if the British state has withdrawn from the United Nations.
 
Nigel Farage, George Galloway, Ian Duncan Smith, the two guys I saw walking into the polling station yesterday wearing LEAVE badges. Millions, it turns out, and I don't know every name. Perhaps lists will be posted at the appropriate time, that's how such things are done, I hear.
Just people you don't like and millions whose motivations you don't know but in your massive experience imagine that you do. What topped the only polling so far on reasons for voting out?
 
Why do you assume that the content of Brexit leaflets reflect people's reasons for leaving the EU? I doubt many people read the leaflets shoved through their door let alone internalise their messages.

I never said that it was on the leaflets, what I meant was that the idea that it was about the 'levers of capital against the international working class' is just as much of a leap as that it was 'an expression of shameful xenophobia' or something
 
I never said that it was on the leaflets, what I meant was that the idea that it was about the 'levers of capital against the international working class' is just as much of a leap as that it was 'an expression of shameful xenophobia' or something
What do you think the social role of the EU is?
 
It doesn't follow that people who voted out will now vote for far right parties.

True, and also it doesn't follow that they won't. How emboldened those parties and movements will now feel though is still to become clear.

Are you comfortable with a parlianment that approved a guy that makes quotes like these? Jean-Claude Juncker's most outrageous political quotations

No, but I've never believed the EU or its representatives were perfect or even good. I'm not comfortable with being congratulated by neo-nazis either but that appears to be happening nonetheless.
 
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