UK Votes to Leave EU

[butchersapron]

at least that's a vaguely consistent position.

My take on it is that the crap about the lack of democracy from the vast majority of people* spouting it is just them repeating crap they've seen others banging on about for years rather than indicating that they've particularly bothered to investigate how it really works themselves. And if they were concerned then they really should at least be voting in the bit of democratic accountability that there was, rather than ignoring it. I think they'd have largely ignored it anyway however democratic the elections were largely because of the way the media fails to report on the EU at all, other than the occasional council of ministers meeting / summit.

*not particularly talking about posters on here in this comment.

Tell me how they "at least be voting in the bit of democratic accountability that there was"? Given the lack of process to do this an the deliberate writing in of this inability into the very foundations of the project since the mid 90s?

 

[2hats]

Sod them - we need to extricate ourself from the Civil Service first. Unelected bastards!

Nail. Head. Hit.

 

[Wilf]

"What is the EU?" is leading UK Google searches at the moment.

 

[NoXion]

Which bits?
And does anyone really believe in democracy? I don't. If you have a class of 30 kids and 16 vote to kick the other 14 in the nuts is it ok? Even if it would be pretty funny. People really meaning representative voting systems with a form of universal suffrage no?

Indeed! Heavens forfend that the masses have any direct and meaningful power. They could end up doing anything with it!

 

[Coolfonz]

Ah an unelected body that can only propose laws most of which become law. Right. Got it.

Could you think of any other way to do that? Maybe, something like elected bodies proposing the laws? And maybe voting on them? Too dangerous?

The commissioners are proposed by elected governments, then discussed between elected govts, then ratified by elected govts. It is true they have too much power though. Imo.
And their laws go through a fucking tortuous process of amendments, again by elected MEPs, in the committee stage, back and forth for fucking ages, years even, and then those laws go to the parliament for more fucking amendments. And then sometimes they get thrown out, but like you say not that often.
Compared to the UK its really pretty `democratic` - the UK has the house of Lords - and compared to the power of corporate lobbyists in the EU, which is horrific, it's not bad. The lobbying and vested interests of single MEPs, of committees (which get lobbied) and of nation states protecting their subsidies (which get lobbied) the system isn't that bad.
The best thing the UE could do to be more `democratic` is open up the commission to voting as butchers point out, but imo, is to get the fucking lobbyists out of the fucking scene.
Also, the EU is very clumsy, 28 (27) members, all with right, left, green, nationalists...can be very very clunky.

 

[free spirit]

Tell me how they "at least be voting in the bit of democratic accountability that there was"? Given the lack of process to do this an the deliberate writing in of this inability into the very foundations of the project since the mid 90s?

Unless the European Parliament is a figment of my imagination, that would pretty obviously be what I was referring to.

The UK parliament has a similar level of democratic deficiency, but withholding votes at elections does fuck all to improve the situation.

 

[butchersapron]

There's little difference in reality, we don't get to vote on cabinet members, only those in their constituencies get to elect them as constituency MPs who may or may not end up in cabinet in a post of the prime ministers choosing.

There's a massive difference in reality. Cabinet members can get at least voted out at periodic elections. Commissioners cannot and are placemen for power games of the elite. Cabinet members have to defend their policies publicly and politically - commissioners do not. All they need do is come up with their told to then pass it on the democratic house. What other powers do they have FS? A fully clued up person like you must know right - what else can they do?

 

[Wilf]

Why would you bother voting in an election for a body you believe to be undemocratic?

Indeed - and how would you feel motivated to vote for a Parliament that is both remote and powerless.

 

[elbows]

And if they were concerned then they really should at least be voting in the bit of democratic accountability that there was, rather than ignoring it.

I have some trouble ratifying this stance with the stance I assume (feel free to correct) you would have taken when it came to trying to thwart leaders who were arranging trade deals with sinister implications.

 

[butchersapron]

Unless the European Parliament is a figment of my imagination, that would pretty obviously be what I was referring to.

The UK parliament has a similar level of democratic deficiency, but withholding votes at elections does fuck all to improve the situation.

So hang on - the only bit of democratic accountability we have is the voting for MEPs? And you wonder why people think it's a sham not worth bothering with?

I wish you and mauvais would decide whether the eu is democratic or not btw. Or if it matters.

 

[Coolfonz]

Indeed! Heavens forfend that the masses have any direct and meaningful power. They could end up doing anything with it!

Power is great. But a belief in the right of one section of the population to massacre another, because they vote for it, is just wonky. Systems, society, self-regulation, peace, stability, equally applicable laws and so on...that's `democratic` imo, the voting bit isn't the top line.

 

[butchersapron]

Power is great. But a belief in the right of one section of the population to massacre another, because they vote for it, is just wonky. Systems, society, self-regulation, peace, stability, equally applicable laws and so on...that's `democratic` imo, the voting bit isn't the top line.

Oddly enough as regards greece you argued that all that counts is power - syriza should do anything to stay in power. Read the eu well there didn't you?

 

[Coolfonz]

Yeah in Greece i think so because its the best available choice, not because Syriza are a utopian aim or dream in themsleves, again they are also (to paraphrase another thread) a cornered dog, i hope they get to bite back one day. That story isn't over imo.

 

[elbows]

I reckon Rupert Trousers by the Sleaford Mods works extra-well post-referendum.

Including one or two of peoples renewed fears about boris, tories and little englanders, and one of the reasons the vote went the way it did with 'ignored by the well-spoken. few scraps, few broken promises on telly'.

 

[Wilf]

we also don't elect the UK cabinet (or prime minister really) the prime minister chooses them himself, yet they decide the laws to be put before parliament.

The reason we don't get to elect commissioners is because that would undermine the role of national governments and be too far on the road to a federal EU for some countries, particularly the UK, to support.

We do elect the European Parliament, which then selects the president and approves the commission as a whole.

Like Butchers, I'm not keen on discussing the validity of the EU with regard to whether it meets the test of liberal democratic institutions. Democratic or otherwise it's a body for organising European neo-liberalism and its relations with the rest of the world. However if you do want to have that discussion... it clearly fails the test. The European Parliament doesn't even work as a fig leaf and has no channels of accountability up or down. It's so shit and pointless that it fails to even carry an ideological function. Added to which, for a body with no power, it manages staggering levels of corruption and snout/trough-ery.

The Shitness of the EU Parliament isn't the major reason for last night's result, but its part of the story.

 

[butchersapron]

Yeah in Greece i think so because its the best available choice, not because Syriza are a utopian aim or dream in themsleves, again they are also (to paraphrase another thread) a cornered dog, i hope they get to bite back one day. That story isn't over imo.

Jesus, they're imposing eu led austerity in a state with no parliament, an eu-protectorate - and rather than face facts about your analysis you offer some fantasy about them coming back - and through parliament? EU fantasy broke down into full madness here.

 

[free spirit]

There's a massive difference in reality. Cabinet members can get at least voted out at periodic elections. Commissioners cannot and are placemen for power games of the elite. Cabinet members have to defend their policies publicly and politically - commissioners do not. All they need do is come up with their told to then pass it on the democratic house. What other powers do they have FS? A fully clued up person like you must know right - what else can they do?

how do I go about voting out a UK cabinet member?

Commissioners change every 5 years. If the make up of the parliament and council of ministers were to become majority socialist then the commissioners would also be majority socialist. The fact that's not currently the case is because that's not been the democratically expressed will of the people across Europe, if the left were able to convince the people of their case then there could be a majority socialist commission as well as parliament and council of ministers.

As Coolfonz states, the commissioners are answerable to the parliament and can get very little done without parliamentary approval, they face significant levels of scrutiny for all bills they propose and actions taken by parliamentary committees, and then the entire parliament, and the council of ministers.

So the problem's not the lack of democracy, it's the lack of ability of the left to really attain mass appeal across the continent.

 

[elbows]

Malice in blunderland.

 

[free spirit]

So hang on - the only bit of democratic accountability we have is the voting for MEPs? And you wonder why people think it's a sham not worth bothering with?

I wish you and mauvais would decide whether the eu is democratic or not btw. Or if it matters.

2 layers of it, MEPs and their elected governments.

And MEPs are elected proportionally so should better reflect the views of those who bother to vote than any other English parliament.

no idea about Mauvais's views.

 

[butchersapron]

how do I go about voting out a UK cabinet member?

Commissioners change every 5 years. If the make up of the parliament and council of ministers were to become majority socialist then the commissioners would also be majority socialist. The fact that's not currently the case is because that's not been the democratically expressed will of the people across Europe, if the left were able to convince the people of their case then there could be a majority socialist commission as well as parliament and council of ministers.

As Coolfonz states, the commissioners are answerable to the parliament and can get very little done without parliamentary approval, they face significant levels of scrutiny for all bills they propose and actions taken by parliamentary committees, and then the entire parliament, and the council of ministers.

So the problem's not the lack of democracy, it's the lack of ability of the left to really attain mass appeal across the continent.

You don't vote them out as a cabinet member - you vote them out as an MP. You don't have even that pathetic option with the euro commission.

Oh great some saviour from on high has decided the euro commission is to be majority socialist. Lucky they got to decide all that for themselves pretty much.

This level of democracy is enough for you. Good. Glad for you. This is one reason why you lost.

 

[elbows]

Let them eat technocrats.

 

[butchersapron]

2 layers of it, MEPs and their elected governments.

And MEPs are elected proportionally so should better reflect the views of those who bother to vote than any other English parliament.

no idea about Mauvais's views.

Too much democracy in fact!

 

[free spirit]

I have some trouble ratifying this stance with the stance I assume (feel free to correct) you would have taken when it came to trying to thwart leaders who were arranging trade deals with sinister implications.

no idea as I'm not a mind reader.

In my view the most effective way of thwarting EU trade deals is via MEPs, both electing those who're opposed to them, and lobbying all of them. As well as national governments, but it's the MEPs who really do the detailed work of amendments etc.

If that fails, or it's being thrust upon us to quickly to influence MEPs etc then more direct action to protest at the council of ministers meeting would also be worthwhile, but that should be a last line of defense not a first line of it.

 

[Wilf]

how do I go about voting out a UK cabinet member?

Commissioners change every 5 years. If the make up of the parliament and council of ministers were to become majority socialist then the commissioners would also be majority socialist. The fact that's not currently the case is because that's not been the democratically expressed will of the people across Europe, if the left were able to convince the people of their case then there could be a majority socialist commission as well as parliament and council of ministers.

As Coolfonz states, the commissioners are answerable to the parliament and can get very little done without parliamentary approval, they face significant levels of scrutiny for all bills they propose and actions taken by parliamentary committees, and then the entire parliament, and the council of ministers.

So the problem's not the lack of democracy, it's the lack of ability of the left to really attain mass appeal across the continent.

You seem to be suggesting that the whole apparatus of the EU, the commission and all its works is neutral - just needs a social democratic vote across the continent and things will be fine?

 

[mauvais]

I wish you and mauvais would decide whether the eu is democratic or not btw. Or if it matters.

Well if only you'd asked.

In terms of the technical machinery of it, I agree mostly with Coolfonz' sentiments, in particular that it probably represents a better version of our domestic setup, which in itself may be nothing much to aspire to, but that it is nonetheless flawed.

A tier closer to working reality, and you can't have true democracy without engagement and transparency. A perfect machine representing noone isn't democracy either. For whatever reasons - a mixture of structural properties and our own political choices - we as a nation and society have utterly failed to take part in anything other than the technical minimum. We're not alone in that respect. Posters on this thread think not voting for MEPs represents a considered rejection of its undemocratic nature. I think balls, it represents national disengagement and public irrelevance.

Then another level up, I think little of this detail is even close to the dominant factors in public discourse and the electorate's decision making.

So, as it turns out, all three. It is, it isn't, and it doesn't matter.

Now back to my loss, I suppose. Which bit is your victory?

 

[free spirit]

You don't vote them out as a cabinet member - you vote them out as an MP.

how? My MP isn't in the cabinet so I get no opportunity to vote a cabinet member out.

Seriously on this point there's fuck all direct democracy in either system, both are reliant on the elected representatives to nominate / approve their chosen cabinets.

 

[elbows]

In my view the most effective way of thwarting EU trade deals is via MEPs, both electing those who're opposed to them, and lobbying all of them. As well as national governments, but it's the MEPs who really do the detailed work of amendments etc.

If that fails, or it's being thrust upon us to quickly to influence MEPs etc then more direct action to protest at the council of ministers meeting would also be worthwhile, but that should be a last line of defense not a first line of it.

Thanks, that answered my question. Do you think you'd have done it that way round when you were younger?

By the way I know that me and you have had rows in the past and I don't want to do that anymore so whether you answer that question or not I won't be following up with anything that might goad you.

 

[Coolfonz]

Jesus, they're imposing eu led austerity in a state with no parliament, an eu-protectorate - and rather than face facts about your analysis you offer some fantasy about them coming back - and through parliament? EU fantasy broke down into full madness here.

Yeah it's not good. I'm not saying that it's a good thing, the austerity. It is not. There are a lot of other things in Greek society Syriza can deal with on the way though, police, legal accountability for the elite, civil society, Golden Dawn...I understand you think they sold out, you must understand I think they are the best choice in a shit situation, we've disagreed over this many times right? Honestly if you'd like to PM me and go over it in detail we might stop boring people, maybe you can convince me you're correct

 

[Wilf]

How does the EU/Commission stand vis a vis the IMF and WTO? Is it on the same side?

 

[free spirit]

You seem to be suggesting that the whole apparatus of the EU, the commission and all its works is neutral - just needs a social democratic vote across the continent and things will be fine?

well, it'd take a while to undo the neoliberal elements to it, but ultimately if there was a sustained period with (qualified) majority socialist (or social democratic) MEPs and governments then those elements could be changed over time.