UK Votes to Leave EU

[Coolfonz]

You want a percentage who are `fighting it` and a percentage who are mad race-oids and a percentage who ticked the wrong box? Go and have a fucking pint/bang hard, ffs, it's friday. Chill the fuck out. It's the internet. Arguing over bits and bobs about the EU and its structures when mad right wing cunts are running all over the place. Wheres the bloody facepalm thing? Oh here I'm not the only person here who disagrees with you, christ.

 

[inva]

You want a percentage who are `fighting it` and a percentage who are mad race-oids and a percentage who ticked the wrong box? Go and have a fucking pint/bang hard, ffs, it's friday. Chill the fuck out. It's the internet. Arguing over bits and bobs about the EU and its structures when mad right wing cunts are running all over the place. Wheres the bloody facepalm thing? Oh here I'm not the only person here who disagrees with you, christ.

who are you talking to?

 

[killer b]

Has someone posted Lisa Mckenzie's article for THE yet?

EU referendum: many don’t care what happens next, they just wanted change

 

[butchersapron]

You want a percentage who are `fighting it` and a percentage who are mad race-oids and a percentage who ticked the wrong box? Go and have a fucking pint/bang hard, ffs, it's friday. Chill the fuck out. It's the internet. Arguing over bits and bobs about the EU and its structures when mad right wing cunts are running all over the place. Wheres the bloody facepalm thing? Oh here I'm not the only person here who disagrees with you, christ.

What?

 

[butchersapron]

Has someone posted Lisa Mckenzie's article for THE yet?

EU referendum: many don’t care what happens next, they just wanted change

Nope. They won't listen anyway.

 

[inva]

Has someone posted Lisa Mckenzie's article for THE yet?

EU referendum: many don’t care what happens next, they just wanted change

thanks for posting that I'll give it a read, I have her book on my to read list

 

[emanymton]

That's quite a broad question. Maybe you should go first and I'll see if I agree with you

I think I've made my position clear, why do you have a shot.

 

[Skyfallsz]

I think I've made my position clear, why do you have a shot.

Ok, the reason that I am upset about the result is that we are ridiculously lucky to live in the EU, it's one of the most stable and well off parts of the world, and it's also ridiculously good that you can just travel around such a large area so easily. If the campaign to exit had offered anything positive up then I might have been on board, but the left wing arguments are just the same bullshit that you will be repeating about whatever comes next, and after that.
It seems like leaving your job when you don't have another job to go to to me
It's not actually taken as a given that Europe will just be boring and well off forever, it's already falling into the shit, I don't see why people want to hurry that up,

 

[Poi E]

And Wales?

Where do you bubble freaks come from that you don't know anyone who'd voted or considered voting Brexit. I didn't vote Brexit BTW. But really. Pull your heads out of your arses. Try talking to people, seeing what's going on.

Hey dude, not supporting either side here, just found it funny someone saying fuck Britain when Scotland voted remain. Know plenty who voted either way.

 

[Poi E]

Cameron pretty much guaranteed to go down in history as the worst PM ever now. He's lost us the NHS, the EU and probably Scotland too.

Lost 'us' Scotland? What is it? An asset of England?

 

[mojo pixy]

millions whose motivations you don't know but in your massive experience imagine that you do

Back atcha.

But actually the ''congratulations'' we're getting probably aren't taking into account the many different motivations for voting to leave. They're really aimed at the result itself.

 

[emanymton]

Ok, the reason that I am upset about the result is that we are ridiculously lucky to live in the EU, it's one of the most stable and well off parts of the world, and it's also ridiculously good that you can just travel around such a large area so easily. If the campaign to exit had offered anything positive up then I might have been on board, but the left wing arguments are just the same bullshit that you will be repeating about whatever comes next, and after that.
It seems like leaving your job when you don't have another job to go to to me
It's not actually taken as a given that Europe will just be boring and well off forever, it's already falling into the shit, I don't see why people want to hurry that up,

Which doesn't really answers the question. What role does it perform, who's interests does it serve? Do you think that freedom of travel exists just because the people who run the EU are nice?

 

[mojo pixy]

What topped the only polling so far on reasons for voting out?

What did?

 

[butchersapron]

What did?

Lack of democratic control - it's posted above on this thread.

 

[mojo pixy]

Lack of democratic control - it's posted above on this thread.

Are you referring to ''decisions about the UK should be taken in the UK'' or ''lack of choice over how the EU expanded its membership or its powers''? I'm not clear on the #1 reason among the three; it looks as if the ''sovereignty'' flavoured one was actually the main one.

Maybe mass boycotts of multinational corporations are also about to begin, led by Farage and his posse of ''Take Our Country Back''ers. I mean. If it's a lack of democratic accountability and a lack of control over large organisations who make decisions that affect us which is the main thing we're concerned about.

 

[xenon]

Hey dude, not supporting either side here, just found it funny someone saying fuck Britain when Scotland voted remain. Know plenty who voted either way.

Sorry. Last para wasn't aimed at you. Thread was moving fast, shoulda multiquoted.

 

[xenon]

I'm listening to Any Questions. I think I need to do something else... Anything. Very soon.

 

[butchersapron]

Are you referring to ''decisions about the UK should be taken in the UK'' or ''lack of choice over how the EU expanded its membership or its powers''? I'm not clear on the #1 reason among the three; it looks as if the ''sovereignty'' flavoured one was actually the main one.

Maybe mass boycotts of multinational corporations are also about to begin, led by Farage and his posse of ''Take Our Country Back''ers. I mean. If it's a lack of democratic accountability and a lack of control over large organisations who make decisions that affect us which is the main thing we're concerned about.

They are all pretty much the same - don't want an anti-democratic body having control over the UK.

Maybe they're liars, maybe they are part of Nigel's army. Do you think this is a good way to start dealing with the experiences that they represent?

Yes, maybe they'll write silly stuff on their pencil cases rather than delivering a blow to the regional organsiation of capital that has the bosses shitting themselves already. Maybe.

 

[Wilf]

I wish it was just a battle of ideologies. But it isn't. It is a real material battle that takes place daily, as capital tries to force more and more concessions from labour. The EU will not protect labour from capital, it is in fact one of the institutiones capital uses to force those concessions. The only way to slow the gradual descent into shit id by working class struggle. Am I optimistic about the prospects for such struggle? No I am not. But by leaving the EU we deprive capital of one of the leavers it has against us. The EU will never work to improve things for the working class.

I think this issue shows incredibly clearly the difference between those who really have pro-working class politics and the liberals. The librals look for some entity that somehow exists outside of society to improve things, weather it's the state or the EU. Those with true pro-working class politics recognise that it is only by the active struggle of the working class that things will improve. Not that I am saying everyone who voted remain is a liberal, as with those of us who voted leave there are a wide range of reasons why people voted to remain.

I agree with every word of that, says it perfectly. But also, as you say, the result and the act of leaving don't themselves provide grounds for optimism in terms of struggle. To see a scenario where there is an improvement or an upturn in struggle as a result requires twists and turns or unintended consequences. Just at the level of common sense there's the likelihood of more austerity, more public sector pay cuts - not the squawking predictions of 'project fear', but definitely something. There might also be twists and turns in terms of which politicians rise to the top of the pile, but it looks like a boost for the worst bits of the tory party. Things may well get worse. But what do you do? Just as you say, it would have been madness to line up with EU neo-liberalism in the pretence that it might 'defend' us. Who would it defend us from, itself and the very set of forces and structures that it is a key part of? ONce you start thinking class struggle can be done in some way alongside or 'with'/'within' the EU, you stop doing class struggle.

 

[mojo pixy]

don't want an anti-democratic body having control over the UK.

The civil service has already been mentioned.

 

[butchersapron]

The civil service has already been mentioned.

I reckon they're not keen on that either. You know, what with being all anti-elite and anti-establishment and wanting to tear shit down. I'm not - are you?

This is madness, leavers are mad hypocrites because they love the civil service. Or ignore it. In line with your post above, where is either your or the remain campaigns anti-civil service activity?

Getting crazy now.

 

[Skyfallsz]

Which doesn't really answers the question. What role does it perform, who's interests does it serve? Do you think that freedom of travel exists just because the people who run the EU are nice?

It lets people have citizenship rights in a large area. It's in the interests of itself, they probably make more money like that.

Your existentialist questions are a bit pointless since, like I said a couple of times about my main grievance with the Leave people, you aren't offering anything!
What role do you think that the state is going to perform and which interests will it serve now that the referendum results are in? Whose interests does it serve to kick the EU in the balls?

 

[butchersapron]

It lets people have citizenship rights in a large area. It's in the interests of itself, they probably make more money like that.

Your existentialist questions are a bit pointless since, like I said a couple of times about my main grievance with the Leave people, you aren't offering anything!
What role do you think that the state is going to perform and which interests will it serve now that the referendum results are in? Whose interests does it serve to kick the EU in the balls?

Why didn't great swathes of people in the most deprived areas did not jump at - in fact, rejected - the chance of having citizenship rights in a large area that might make them some money do you think?

 

[Skyfallsz]

Are you referring to ''decisions about the UK should be taken in the UK'' or ''lack of choice over how the EU expanded its membership or its powers''? I'm not clear on the #1 reason among the three; it looks as if the ''sovereignty'' flavoured one was actually the main one.

Maybe mass boycotts of multinational corporations are also about to begin, led by Farage and his posse of ''Take Our Country Back''ers. I mean. If it's a lack of democratic accountability and a lack of control over large organisations who make decisions that affect us which is the main thing we're concerned about.

Surely we can build on this by turning down the remaining trade agreements have with USA and China on moral grounds. Socialism is just around the corner

 

[mojo pixy]

where is either your or the remain campaigns anti-civil service activity?

Unnecessary when you're as into undemocratic things as I am / we are. As the Remain votes clearly attest.

 

[butchersapron]

Unnecessary when you're as into undemocratic things as I am / we are. As the Remain votes clearly attest.

But you're not. The suggestion was that people who oppose the eu on the grounds that it's anti-democratic are hypocrites because they don't oppose the british civil service. You remainers also don't make a thing of it. So either we're all anti-democrats (and some of the arguments on here from free spirit and mauvais clearly are) or none are - or some are - based on their active opposition to the british civil service.

 

[crossthebreeze]

A couple of articles I thought were interesting.
Jon Snow starting to get it - with a lot of hindsight - though i think more of the media should have tried to understand before it would have been better, and he is still patronising - some people are "Easy pickings for politicians determined to blame Europe for all Britain's failings" - and nothing about people wanting more democratic control.

John Harris makes some very good points in this article - though one or two of his previous articles have seemed to blame immigration on its one for lowering wages and raising rents etc - i think he doesn't always put his observations in a detailed enough context of welfare cuts and increased conditionality (and the political language surrounding this), massive cuts to local services, bulldozing or selling off of social housing, etc, and lack of planning which in themselves can certainly lead to worse pay and conditions, and increased rents and poorer living conditions for working class people, and when combined with increased immigration to a particular area can make things very hard - and make it easy to blame immigration alone as the cause.

 

[butchersapron]

A couple of articles I thought were interesting.
Jon Snow starting to get it - with a lot of hindsight - though i think more of the media should have tried to understand before it would have been better, and he is still patronising - some people are "Easy pickings for politicians determined to blame Europe for all Britain's failings" - and nothing about people wanting more democratic control.

John Harris makes some very good points in this article - though one or two of his previous articles have seemed to blame immigration on its one for lowering wages and raising rents etc - i think he doesn't always put his observations in a detailed enough context of welfare cuts and increased conditionality (and the political language surrounding this), massive cuts to local services, bulldozing or selling off of social housing, etc, and lack of planning which in themselves can certainly lead to worse pay and conditions, and increased rents and poorer living conditions for working class people, and when combined with increased immigration to a particular area can make things very hard - and make it easy to blame immigration alone as the cause.

Remember, Harris' is always pitching to an internal labour strategy/policy audience (and media types) primarily. He's telling them what to pretend to care about if they want to be effective. Given they won't do anything effective that is.

His stuff is very good and revealing though. Esp on vid,

 

[mojo pixy]

But you're not. The suggestion was that people who oppose the eu on the grounds that it's anti-democratic are hypocrites because they don't oppose the british civil service.

Not the civil service nor the many foreign-based private companies that also have huge control over elements of our society and lives. It is hypocrisy. This whole charade has been hypocritical from the word go. It's hypocritical now. It won't stop being hypocritical any time soon.

Though I'd be prepared to accept that shoplifting and fighting the police respectively count as anti-multinational and anti-civil service activities.

 

[Skyfallsz]

Why didn't great swathes of people in the most deprived areas did not jump at - in fact, rejected - the chance of having citizenship rights in a large area that might make them some money do you think?

They don't feel like citizens, like I said, it's a fundamental problem, I agree with the problems, just disagree with the ill thought out solutions
I don't think that it was about the money, that was the fundamental error that the pro EU side made. The fundamental error of the other side is that it isn't going to get anyone the respect that they feel they deserve.