Tory UK EU Exit Referendum

[Bahnhof Strasse]

If you aren't interested in explaining your argument then I'll not bother trying to understand it.

A main point of leave is that with UK government shitbags there is the faint possibility of changing things that are bad for the general population, with an in vote that is lost, for good.

hth

 

[DotCommunist]

isn't it lovely how the 'you'll get the pesky migrants' is a dog whistle threat now?

 

[gosub]

As part of the single European market, EU member states have worked to ensure satisfactory product and safety standards. Under the umbrella of the CE Marking Directive many product standards and European norms have been created and brought into British law via British Standards (BS). If you want to supply the UK, or any other EU country, your products have to comply with the relevant standards and display the CE mark.

The UK, being in the EU, has a part to play in shaping these product standards, norms, and directives to which we must then comply. If we leave the EU - but still wanted to trade with the single market - we will still have to comply with all relevant regulations but would have no further hand in shaping them.

Those would CE marks that have to fit in with global standards, that we get a seat at the table in deciding.

 

[magneze]

As part of the single European market, EU member states have worked to ensure satisfactory product and safety standards. Under the umbrella of the CE Marking Directive many product standards and European norms have been created and brought into British law via British Standards (BS). If you want to supply the UK, or any other EU country, your products have to comply with the relevant standards and display the CE mark.

The UK, being in the EU, has a part to play in shaping these product standards, norms, and directives to which we must then comply. If we leave the EU - but still wanted to trade with the single market - we will still have to comply with all relevant regulations but would have no further hand in shaping them.

So what? The same is true if you want to trade with anyone else. It's not like the EU is the only place the UK sells to. All other non-European countries seems to sell in Europe quite well.

 

[brogdale]

isn't it lovely how the 'you'll get the pesky migrants' is a dog whistle threat now?

Yep, but outside intervention could well be counter-productive to their cause...

 

[Zabo]

I have no idea who these fuckers are who run things in the EU, let alone the chance to get myself nicked for chinning one of the fuckers.

I was tempted to chin one of them. He came to the door begging for old clothes in exchange for an EU balloon. The balloon was the giveaway.

 

[weltweit]

Those would CE marks that have to fit in with global standards, that we get a seat at the table in deciding.

CE marks are a European thing, you need to comply to sell to Europe. America / China / New Zealand have to comply with CE marks if they want to sell to the EU.

And if you are complaining that we only get a small seat at the European table you can be sure we get an even smaller one at global discussions.

 

[newbie]

Yes but we will be able to make trade deals with the commonwealth, yiptde fucking dee!

If that was really what we were being offered- 50+ countries not 28 , 4 times the population of the EU, spread over all the inhabited continents and specifically not defined by skin colour- then there would be great deal of thinking to be done. It's not on offer though, not by anyone sfaics.

 

[weltweit]

So what? The same is true if you want to trade with anyone else. It's not like the EU is the only place the UK sells to. All other non-European countries seems to sell in Europe quite well.

The EU is the largest single market on the planet, (how big is NAFTA?) on our doorstep, it seems idiotic to me to put any barriers to our access to it.

 

[gosub]

CE marks are a European thing, you need to comply to sell to Europe. America / China / New Zealand have to comply with CE marks if they want to sell to the EU.

You think I didn't know that? You think other parts of the world don't have their version of CE? That it its a coincidence that tat globally is becoming remarkably similar?


How do get smaller than not having one. We currently sit on 7% of the EU's seat.

 

[weltweit]

You think I didn't know that? You think other parts of the world don't have their version of CE? That it its a coincidence that tat globally is becoming remarkably similar?

How do get smaller than not having one. We currently sit on 7% of the EU's seat.

What is your point caller?

 

[gosub]

What is your point caller?

I remember this point being made last year, and how Switzerland had to follow EU banking regulation. True enough, hasn't stopped them formally withdrawing there application to join the EU.


eta (after dinner) ISO codes don't originate in EU, CODEX for food may be written in Italy but there above EU,all your electronics that plug and plays together nicely if that was lead at continent level would be a nightmare, banking - Basel, ID cards -ICAO.

Its healthier (if tedious) that the referendum is broadening out peoples understanding of Article this and Article that ...but it should be done in tandem with info of the overarching global bodies

 

[teuchter]

A main point of leave is that with UK government shitbags there is the faint possibility of changing things that are bad for the general population, with an in vote that is lost, for good.

hth

You've repeated your assertion without explaining the reasoning behind it. No, that doesn't help.

 

[redsquirrel]

The EU is the largest single market on the planet, (how big is NAFTA?) on our doorstep, it seems idiotic to me to put any barriers to our access to it.

Why don't you take these arguments to the "progressive arguments for staying in the EU' thread. I'm sure they'll get a good reception there.

------------

If people really want to have a 'progressive' (urgh, hate that phrase) debate about whether to vote, and if for who, then they need to stop reducing the question down to the UK gov vs the EU gov.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

 

[newbie]

Can anyone provide some examples of things that the UK government have wanted to do, but been prevented from doing so by the EU?

I don't think anyone has attempted to answer this, have they? That's rather telling, given how strongly the mainstream debate is dominated by notions of 'sovereignty'. The only example I can think of is the long running- and utterly ludicrous- should prisoners be allowed to vote argument*. There must be more examples, surely?

e2a, I don't even know whether that's an EU or ECHR matter tbh, so maybe leaving wouldn't change anything.

 

[gosub]

I don't think anyone has attempted to answer this, have they? That's rather telling, given how strongly the mainstream debate is dominated by notions of 'sovereignty'. The only example I can think of is the long running- and utterly ludicrous- should prisoners be allowed to vote argument*. There must be more examples, surely?

e2a, I don't even know whether that's an EU or ECHR matter tbh, so maybe leaving wouldn't change anything.

Prisioner votes is ECHR, but you can't be part of the single market either within or outside of EU without abiding by it.

I do recall Brown getting worked up about an UK oil refinery, where all job applications were entirely being filled through an Italian agency (his British jobs for British workers week) which was quietly dropped amid accusations of racism and the fact stopping it went against EU law. I said at the time that was going to cause difficultly with planning, as the main counter to NIMBYism over large heavy industry is usually "good for the local economy" . Planning procedure has since changed.

 

[J Ed]

Leaving EU = WW2

 

[gosub]

Leaving EU = WW2

There are two issues currently that may well lead to the collapse of the European Union:
(1)reform or the lack of it of the EUro currency
(2)how to deal with the massive increase in people streaming into the EU

The UK is not in the EUro, nor Schengen as Mr Cameron proudly asserts, however our semi detached "special" status limits our influence how either are dealt with. Instead the UK government desires that we lash ourselves to the mast as both storms develop.

That is not to say that a loud acrimonious exit as favoured by some more populist elements of the OUT side wouldn't be like pouring petrol on the situation, but they would have no actual say in how it was done [carping from the sidelines about a stitch up most likely].

A tactical withdrawal to EFTA seems sane, prudent and not too destabilizing.

 

[Almor]

I don't think anyone has attempted to answer this, have they? That's rather telling, given how strongly the mainstream debate is dominated by notions of 'sovereignty'. The only example I can think of is the long running- and utterly ludicrous- should prisoners be allowed to vote argument*. There must be more examples, surely?

e2a, I don't even know whether that's an EU or ECHR matter tbh, so maybe leaving wouldn't change anything.

From facebook where my uncle is share spamming valiantly for Brexit

The UK has lost over 75% of all cases it has taken to the European Court of Justice.These defeats affect everything...
Posted by Vote Leave on Wednesday, March 2, 2016​

clicking on the date will take you to the post, I think

:-/

 

[gosub]

From facebook where my uncle is share spamming valiantly for Brexit

The UK has lost over 75% of all cases it has taken to the European Court of Justice.These defeats affect everything...
Posted by Vote Leave on Wednesday, March 2, 2016​

clicking on the date will take you to the post, I think

:-/

If you genuinely don't want to see those facebook purity as well as stripping out adverts, can filter content by key word

 

[Almor]

If you genuinely don't want to see those facebook purity as well as stripping out adverts, can filter content by key word

Thanks
I do occasionally moan at him about some of the crap he posts though

Not sure I can be bothered to engage with any of the EU referendum stuff even when it's nonsense

 

[gosub]

Thanks
I do occasionally moan at him about some of the crap he posts though

Not sure I can be bothered to engage with any of the EU referendum stuff even when it's nonsense

At this stage is more a playground for the more committed, over a 100 days to go, people will be sick of it before main drive on either side gets going in May. It is important and people should think things through before voting but....

Facebook Purity though a great free add on I don't know why everyone doesn't use it (apart from it robbing Mr Zuckerburg revenue )

 

[hot air baboon]

The EU is the largest single market on the planet, (how big is NAFTA?) on our doorstep, it seems idiotic to me to put any barriers to our access to it.

....equally idiotic for them to put any barriers up to us bearing in mind the famous 70bn a year trade deficit we run with the EU and that Brexit-Britain, in the words of the extremely pro-EU Jonathan Portes ...would become the EU’s single largest trading partner for trade in goods...

 

[gosub]

The EU is the largest single market on the planet, (how big is NAFTA?) on our doorstep, it seems idiotic to me to put any barriers to our access to it.

Single Market or EEA is bigger than the EU.

 

[redsquirrel]

I don't think anyone has attempted to answer this, have they? That's rather telling, given how strongly the mainstream debate is dominated by notions of 'sovereignty'.

(my emphasis)
Surely you've answered your own question. Teucher, and others, reduction of the issue to the UK gov vs EU gov is based on an underlying set of liberal assumptions that I don't accept, and is based in a view of politics that I am opposed to.

You keep talking about "progressives" being on the same side but I see nothing progressive in writing the most important agent, labour, completely out the equation.

 

[elbows]

I cannot help but to be amused that some prominent out tories (e.g. IDS, Boris) are whining about and exposing the nature of 'project fear'. I can enjoy this for at least two reasons - this sort of fear based approach to influencing the masses is always pretty blatant but usually goes unacknowledged by the sort of politicians that are pointing it out this time around. And we can have them for gross hypocrisy since the amount of time thats passed since they were happily using the very same fear propaganda in relation to the Scottish independence referendum is short.

 

[newbie]

(my emphasis)
Surely you've answered your own question. Teucher, and others, reduction of the issue to the UK gov vs EU gov is based on an underlying set of liberal assumptions that I don't accept, and is based in a view of politics that I am opposed to.

You keep talking about "progressives" being on the same side but I see nothing progressive in writing the most important agent, labour, completely out the equation.

Well write it in then.

I'm parked firmly on the fence looking to U75 Out advocates for a clear understanding of how Brexit will advance the interests and agency of the organised and unorganised British and European labouring classes.

 

[redsquirrel]

Well write it in then.

I'm in opposition to the whole political underpinnings of the position precisely because it's liberal nonsense.

I'm parked firmly on the fence looking to U75 Out advocates for a clear understanding of how Brexit will advance the interests and agency of the organised and unorganised British and European labouring classes.

Well see post 1287 for my views. Though if really are on the fence why aren't you challenging stuff like teuchers nonsense or the other liberal rubbish on the "Progressive arguments" thread?

 

[newbie]

I'm in opposition to the whole political underpinnings of the position precisely because it's liberal nonsense.

Well see post 1287 for my views. Though if really are on the fence why aren't you challenging stuff like teuchers nonsense or the other liberal rubbish on the "Progressive arguments" thread?

I've read #1287. It's an ok rant but doesn't actually say anything substantial. And that, I'm afraid, is symptomatic of the Out campaigning so far.

eg, it's all very well asserting that "capital want's the UK to remain in the EU" but it's simply not true. Sections of 'capital' are lined up on both sides of the debate (see the current froth centered on the British Chambers of Commerce), dependent on how they think they can gain advantage over rivals by exploiting their preferred outcome, but in the sure knowledge they'll be able to continue to exploit come what may.

I'll challenge what, where and when I please, but by and large I won't bother saying things that others are already saying.

Meanwhile I'm hoping you can center your views on labour not on capital.