Tory UK EU Exit Referendum

[gosub]

It's not correct to state this as a black/white thing. There are EU rules in place, but there is wriggle-room built into them.
For instance:



From here. Lots of subjective judgements in there, and scope for rules to be interpreted according to the political realities of the day. Layers of rules and laws that can take precedence or not depending on the conclusion the judges want to arrive at.

TTIP will reduce that wriggle room

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Sounds like a description of the out option as well to me; I've long since stopped deluding myself that I live in any sort of democracy.

Your voice counts for very little in the UK. It counts for nothing at all in Europe. You can't hope to vote out people that are not elected.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

TTIP will reduce that wriggle room

Yep. And what horror of a TTIP is a tory govt likely to negotiate on its own?

 

[gosub]

Yep. And what horror of a TTIP is a tory govt likely to negotiate on its own?

What, the one thats in the middle of tearing itself apart?

 

[teuchter]

Can anyone provide some examples of things that the UK government have wanted to do, but been prevented from doing so by the EU?

It seems a lot of these arguments are rather hypothetical - we can argue about whether or not EU rules would prevent Britain from renationalising the railways, for example, but the fact is that no government has wanted to and it currently seems unlikely that one which proposed it would be elected.

Taking that issue as an example, if we were in a situation where we did want to renationalise the railways and it was demonstrated that we were prevented from doing so by the EU, then that could be a strong argument for leaving. But just saying that the EU might stop us doing from something we haven't even tried to do, doesn't seem a very strong argument.

As I say, what are the real world examples of the EU stopping the UK government doing something they wanted to?

Anyone? Any examples?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

What, the one thats in the middle of tearing itself apart?

Yes, that one. The one that will be in power for four years after the referendum. Under a new leader, presumably, if the vote is to leave, but what difference does that make?

 

[weltweit]

I am primarily a single marketer and as such prefer to stay in, and the UK has more chance to make the EU into something more worthwhile if it has not already exited in a right wing sulk.

 

[andysays]

Yep. And what horror of a TTIP is a tory govt likely to negotiate on its own?

One that could possibly be revoked by a different incoming government in the future if we get out of the EU now, as opposed to the one which we'll effectively be locked into forever if we stay in the EU, I guess.

I agree it's not much of a chance, but staying in we have absolutely no chance whatever.

 

[gosub]

Yes, that one. The one that will be in power for four years after the referendum. Under a new leader, presumably, if the vote is to leave, but what difference does that make?

Unless John Redwood mounts a coup and forces us into NAFTA, there would be no trade deal with the scope of NAFTA TTIP inside this parliament, our best negotiators will be spending at least two years working out the EU situation for a start and HMG put out documentation this week, in support of Remain stating that trade deals take ages.

 

[2hats]

Your voice counts for nothing in the UK. It counts for nothing at all in Europe. You can't hope to vote out people that are not elected.

There. FTFY.

 

[weltweit]

Unless John Redwood mounts a coup and forces us into NAFTA, there would be no trade deal with the scope of NAFTA inside this parliament, our best negotiators will be spending at least two years working out the EU situation for a start and HMG put out documentation this week, in support of Remain stating that trade deals take ages.

Yes but we will be able to make trade deals with the commonwealth, yiptde fucking dee!

 

[weltweit]

As part of the single European market, EU member states have worked to ensure satisfactory product and safety standards. Under the umbrella of the CE Marking Directive many product standards and European norms have been created and brought into British law via British Standards (BS). If you want to supply the UK, or any other EU country, your products have to comply with the relevant standards and display the CE mark.

The UK, being in the EU, has a part to play in shaping these product standards, norms, and directives to which we must then comply. If we leave the EU - but still wanted to trade with the single market - we will still have to comply with all relevant regulations but would have no further hand in shaping them.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

There. FTFY.

Jeremy Hunt still walks up and down my high street mouthing platitudes, I can lamp the cunt any time I want. I have no idea who these fuckers are who run things in the EU, let alone the chance to get myself nicked for chinning one of the fuckers.

 

[TheHoodedClaw]

Unless John Redwood mounts a coup and forces us into NAFTA, there would be no trade deal with the scope of NAFTA inside this parliament, our best negotiators will be spending at least two years working out the EU situation for a start and HMG put out documentation this week, in support of Remain stating that trade deals take ages.

When Greenland left, it apparently took three years just to sort out the fishing rights. Obvs the UK has far greater resources to deploy, but I reckon five years is probably optimistic.

 

[teuchter]

Jeremy Hunt still walks up and down my high street mouthing platitudes, I can lamp the cunt any time I want. I have no idea who these fuckers are who run things in the EU, let alone the chance to get myself nicked for chinning one of the fuckers.

Your Members in the European Parliament

 

[gosub]

Jeremy Hunt still walks up and down my high street mouthing platitudes, I can lamp the cunt any time I want. I have no idea who these fuckers are who run things in the EU, let alone the chance to get myself nicked for chinning one of the fuckers.

The Commissioners - European Commission

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Your Members in the European Parliament

How many commissioners are in there?

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

The Commissioners - European Commission

See, they don't walk up and down my high street, they don't need to as they don't need to even pretend that my voice counts for anything.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Anyone? Any examples?

You are asking the wrong question, as the UK government are shitbags too. A main point of leave is that with UK government shitbags there is the faint possibility of changing things that are bad for the general population, with an in vote that is lost, for good.

But if you really want your question answering, look to Cameron's negotiations to "Reform the EU". What was his key demand and how did that work out for him?

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Francois Hollande, ""I don't want to scare you, I just want to say the truth - there will be consequences."

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Oh la la

EU referendum: Hollande warns of UK exit 'consequences' - BBC News

By BBC Paris Correspondent Lucy Williamson
Over the past few weeks, the rhetoric on Calais here has grown louder and more strident.

There is pressure from politicians on both the left and the right to tackle the migrant situation in Calais, and those close to government ministers say that includes those in the Cabinet.

No one has said that a change in policy is currently being discussed, and newspapers this morning suggest Paris isn't currently counting on ending the Le Touquet agreement, but one source with close ties to the government told me there's real concern than a UK exit from Europe will leave France exposed to legal problems over the right to free movement of people within the EU.

Mr Hollande is facing tough opposition from the far right Front National, as he heads towards a presidential election campaign.

But shifting the border back onto British soil could end up encouraging migrant flows through France.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

You are asking the wrong question, as the UK government are shitbags too. A main point of leave is that with UK government shitbags there is the faint possibility of changing things that are bad for the general population, with an in vote that is lost, for good.

But if you really want your question answering, look to Cameron's negotiations to "Reform the EU". What was his key demand and how did that work out for him?

He didn't have any key demands. That was just a game to produce a thing he could bring back here to show he was doing something about immigrants claiming our benefits.

 

[teuchter]

You are asking the wrong question, as the UK government are shitbags too. A main point of leave is that with UK government shitbags there is the faint possibility of changing things that are bad for the general population, with an in vote that is lost, for good.

But if you really want your question answering, look to Cameron's negotiations to "Reform the EU". What was his key demand and how did that work out for him?

It's not the wrong question to ask people who are saying that being in the EU means that attempts to improve things for a significant number of people in the UK are regularly blocked (at least, more regularly than attempts to pass policy that would worsen things for significant numbers of people).

It seems that that's your argument.

So what are the examples? Why don't you tell me what Cameron wanted with his reforms, and what he didn't get, and whether those things would have made life better for most people in the UK, or the most disadvantaged people in the UK, or whichever group you thinking of when you refer to the "general population".

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

It's not the wrong question to ask people who are saying that being in the EU means that attempts to improve things for a significant number of people in the UK are regularly blocked (at least, more regularly than attempts to pass policy that would worsen things for significant numbers of people).

It seems that that's your argument.

That is not my argument at all. I don't hear anyone saying that. Can you show where people are saying that? Specific examples of people saying that would be handy.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

He didn't have any key demands. That was just a game to produce a thing he could bring back here to show he was doing something about immigrants claiming our benefits.

Yes, and he didn't even get that did he?

 

[teuchter]

That is not my argument at all. I don't hear anyone saying that. Can you show where people are saying that? Specific examples of people saying that would be handy.

See the several pages above where nationalisation was being discussed. The discussion was about whether or not the EU could block Britain renationalising its railways, if the UK goverment wanted to. Several people were arguing that it could.

If it's not your argument that membership of the EU makes it less likely that the UK government will "change things that are bad for the general population", then you need to state it more clearly.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Yes, and he didn't even get that did he?

He came back with a pretend solution to a pretend problem. Strikes me that was exactly what he went there for. It may not be working as well for him as he had hoped, but that's a different point.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

As I say, what are the real world examples of the EU stopping the UK government doing something they wanted to?

I can't give specifics, but there is a quote going round on the interweb that michael gove has said he's wanted to do things and been told by civil servants that it's against EU law.

On the basis of the sort of stuff I can imagine pob-faced-twunt wanting to do (i assume this means in terms of bringing legislation in rather than in his personal life) I suppose this counts as a progressive argument for staying in the EU...

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

If it's not your argument that membership of the EU makes it less likely that the UK government will "change things that are bad for the general population", then you need to state it more clearly.

That isn't my argument either, you need to read more carefully.

 

[teuchter]

That isn't my argument either, you need to read more carefully.

If you aren't interested in explaining your argument then I'll not bother trying to understand it.