My expectation is that it would need to be objective rather than subjective. e.g. Comparing reliability records between operators.
But that's just my expectation. How it would actually play out, I don't know.
Tory UK EU Exit Referendum
- Thread starter paolo
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My expectation is that it would need to be objective rather than subjective. e.g. Comparing reliability records between operators.
But that's just my expectation. How it would actually play out, I don't know.
newbie
undisambiguated
Isn't that the key? The state can tender but (in non-exceptional circumstances) there has to be rounds of bidding for various time limited contracts. ie the state can't nationalise, in the old sense of the term, because there cannot be an enduring monopoly, like British Rail was for decades.
In exceptional circumstances, including what they call market failure, of course the state has to step in to keep the trains running, but only until another round of tendering.
That's the neo-liberalism at the heart of the EU arrangements.
Bahnhof Strasse
Met up with Hannah Courtoy a week next Tuesday
EU referendum: France issues border checks warning to UK - BBC News
Good, we can put the refugees up in the banker's houses. We lose the banking scum and gain some refugees. Win Win.
On the other hand, maybe our scumbag bankers may not be so keen to flock to France with the gazillion % income tax rate for the highest earners.
And the UK border in France thing is fuck all to do with the EU.
Could M. Macron be talking out of his hole by any chance?
Good, we can put the refugees up in the banker's houses. We lose the banking scum and gain some refugees. Win Win.
On the other hand, maybe our scumbag bankers may not be so keen to flock to France with the gazillion % income tax rate for the highest earners.
And the UK border in France thing is fuck all to do with the EU.
Could M. Macron be talking out of his hole by any chance?
andysays
Love and solidarity
Exactly, and it's worth remembering that this discussion about rail nationalisation came about because the point was being made that current EU rules specifically prevent the governments of member states from carrying out even what most of us would consider the mildest form of social-democratic reform, even if they have been given an electoral mandate to do so.
That is the real issue, IMO, and those arguing against it by saying that they could do some sorts of limited nationalisation, as long as there is public tendering and the nationalised industry is run like a private business, ie with profit rather than the public good as the primary motive, are not only missing the point, but are an indication of how deeply engrained neo-liberal thinking is, even among many who would consider themselves on the left.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
That's the thing about the soi-disant post-national class; they've consistently proven they won't go anywhere else, despite their promises to do so.
teqniq
DisMembered
Yeah I just saw this. I think it might be another scare tactic, to put people off of voting to leave.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
I suspect that some wording of the agreement might refer to the EU and free movement of people, so technically I suppose that given Brexit, the French could (if they wished) annul the agreement as written?
This is the problem that 'Leave' face; if the UK does vote to leave the EU & its remaining 27 members have no interest in seeing the UK thrive and find the exit straight-forward. Their chances of continued unity would benefit from making an example of any state turning their back on the union.
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littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Who's arguing that?
Bahnhof Strasse
Met up with Hannah Courtoy a week next Tuesday
I guess that is the gamble. I'm not clever enough to know the finer points, but it seems that Germany is in the driving seat of the EU and they are the big exporter, with the UK being a big market for them. That alone would seem to swing the odds in favour of not fucking the UK off. Plus who else would take all of the wine that the French won't drink?
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
That rather depends upon how much the continuation of the union means to Germany. If Brexit potentially set in motion an unfolding of the whole edifice, then the German's might have to take the hit of trade losses to make an example of the UK. Who knows?
teuchter
je suis teuchter
Can anyone provide some examples of things that the UK government have wanted to do, but been prevented from doing so by the EU?
It seems a lot of these arguments are rather hypothetical - we can argue about whether or not EU rules would prevent Britain from renationalising the railways, for example, but the fact is that no government has wanted to and it currently seems unlikely that one which proposed it would be elected.
Taking that issue as an example, if we were in a situation where we did want to renationalise the railways and it was demonstrated that we were prevented from doing so by the EU, then that could be a strong argument for leaving. But just saying that the EU might stop us doing from something we haven't even tried to do, doesn't seem a very strong argument.
As I say, what are the real world examples of the EU stopping the UK government doing something they wanted to?
It seems a lot of these arguments are rather hypothetical - we can argue about whether or not EU rules would prevent Britain from renationalising the railways, for example, but the fact is that no government has wanted to and it currently seems unlikely that one which proposed it would be elected.
Taking that issue as an example, if we were in a situation where we did want to renationalise the railways and it was demonstrated that we were prevented from doing so by the EU, then that could be a strong argument for leaving. But just saying that the EU might stop us doing from something we haven't even tried to do, doesn't seem a very strong argument.
As I say, what are the real world examples of the EU stopping the UK government doing something they wanted to?
magneze
🎧
I'm not sure that follows. If the EU begins to fail then countries are going to want to be sure that there's an exit that works.
Bahnhof Strasse
Met up with Hannah Courtoy a week next Tuesday
Bahnhof Strasse
Met up with Hannah Courtoy a week next Tuesday
That letter fails to address how the, by far largest customer base of Rolls Royce would react to the cars being made in Slovakia or Spain or anywhere other than Sussex. Why would he not mention that?
2hats
Dust.
Though everything to do with cordial relations between countries.
Do you think people in the UAE, US and China are that bothered where they are made?
There's a golden opportunity here for Scotland to vacuum up businesses and talent if the UK leaves the EU and they want in...
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
I would have thought a part of the cachet of owning an RR is that it was made in blighty. 'oh is that a 2017 model made in slovenia? really is worth getting a reconditioned vintage model. They've never beeen the same' etc
gosub
~#
Its a seperate bilateral treaty with France over the checks being carried out this side of the channel. Would be tough on the ferry operators who would be given large fines if they landed jungle residents in the UK
Bahnhof Strasse
Met up with Hannah Courtoy a week next Tuesday
Very much so. However this is only based on what their customers say, so perhaps they are bullshitting for lolz and stuff?
gosub
~#
(1) "as a wholly-owned BMW Group company, it is important for all Rolls-Royce Motor Cars.... " "We believe it's much better to be sat at the table when regulations are set and have a hand in their creation, rather than simply having to accept them." - how would BMW not be at the regulation table?
(2) Even if we didn't go down the EFTA route, would I believe we would, certainly initially, WTO rules cap tarrifs
(3)Even though Stuart Rose claims wages will rise if UK leave, the pound is also going to fall...making staff at UK factories more competitive in relation to their EU neighbours
newbie
undisambiguated
It's a real issue, certainly, but far from the only one. If this was an ordinary Urban75 debate I'd be on your side, probably silently because others would put anything I have to say earlier, more articulately and more passionately.
It's not though, it's a massively complicated, multi-dimensional question which will affect me and my family for the rest of our lives. Some are too young or too old to vote, and I feel I have to take them and their real, tangible, lives into account, and not let my political prejudices cloud the issues.
And of course everybody else in Europe- I had a foreign mate on the continent ranting at me the other day about how if the UK leaves the French with their agricultural protectionism will gain strength and that will cause the whole thing to crumble within 10 years.
Simple it aint, and to pretend there is a single overriding real issue that trumps everything else isn't convincing.
sorry, that's not really aimed at you, just what I've been thinking over the last couple of days as I read the views of those who have already made up their minds, before the debates have got going in earnest.
gosub
~#
Starting to think its more of a when rather than an if. And the two factors causing it: EUro and large influx of people, we opted out of,so our 7% opinion wouldn't carry much weight anyway.
andysays
Love and solidarity
I agree it's not the only issue, and that there are other things that need to be thought about, discussed and weighed up to come to a decision (including the question of how much a No vote would fuck up the Tories), but for the purposes of the debate/discussion around Article 126 on this and other threads, what's important (IMO, obvs) is that it deliberately and explicitly restricts the options of any member state government to pursue even mildly social-democratic policies, even if they have a domestic democratic mandate to do so.
ETA maybe I should just have said that a few days ago and not got drawn into all the other bollocks...
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Bahnhof Strasse
Met up with Hannah Courtoy a week next Tuesday
EU referendum: French minister sparks Calais UK border row - BBC News
Why would the finance minister of France contradict the minister who is actually responsible for the Treaty of Le Touquet? It's almost as if he has an agenda to peddle
Why would the finance minister of France contradict the minister who is actually responsible for the Treaty of Le Touquet? It's almost as if he has an agenda to peddle
Every time someone wants to place some kind of restriction on the ability of the rich to expand their advantage without limit, the same old bollocks about "But they'll all leave!!1!" turns up. This time it's about bankers , it would seem. Again.
But this narrative really misses the point that the first thing you do if you are rich is spend that money on the ability to live where you want to live.
What's the point in being rich but not being able to live near your friends and family? Not being able to bring your children up in your chosen culture? Not having familiar rituals around you?
If somebody will spend £2m in order to live in a tiny flat in the right part of London, why wouldn't they also give up x% in order to live in the country London is situated in?
Money is about what it can buy you, not its accumulation for its own sake. And this is why despite the appeal to panic about losing the rich (leaving aside why that would be an issue in the first place), the rich consistently don't actually leave.
But this narrative really misses the point that the first thing you do if you are rich is spend that money on the ability to live where you want to live.
What's the point in being rich but not being able to live near your friends and family? Not being able to bring your children up in your chosen culture? Not having familiar rituals around you?
If somebody will spend £2m in order to live in a tiny flat in the right part of London, why wouldn't they also give up x% in order to live in the country London is situated in?
Money is about what it can buy you, not its accumulation for its own sake. And this is why despite the appeal to panic about losing the rich (leaving aside why that would be an issue in the first place), the rich consistently don't actually leave.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
The rich are doing the opposite in London. They're spreading. And fucking things up for everyone else wherever they go. Please, please, please, please leave.
2hats
Dust.
It rather strikes me that the 'debate' on both sides is enveloped in a miasma of bullshit emanating from hypotheticals, conditionals and speculation.
Bahnhof Strasse
Met up with Hannah Courtoy a week next Tuesday
Speculation has to be there as no one can say for certain what will happen if we leave.
We can know for certain that some things will happen if we stay; ever closer union of a wholly undemocratic system to rule over us, being a biggie.
There is plenty of bollocks coming from both sides, the IN mob seem to be the far more hysterical, but the the Etonian pig-fucker has been doing the rounds asking people like French Finance fella to speak a load of scary woo, so it's no great shock when these dicks do just that.
2hats
Dust.
Sounds like a description of the out option as well to me; I've long since stopped deluding myself that I live in any sort of democracy.
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